Nordhavn Boats

[Brian Degulis]

Remember guys I'm not talking about the style of these boats or weather or not you feel they're cramped or if you like they way they look. I'm talking more about engineering fit and finish and the quality of the componet parts used to build the boat. It's easy to point out deficiences or just plain old bad workmanship. It's much harder to look at two very well made boats the Hat and the Nordy and be specific about why I think one is substantialy better than the other but I'll try and this is based on owning a Hat and knowing it pretty well and just spending a few hours crawling thru a Nordy.

The interior is much better on the nordy especially the wood work there is much more atention to detail and much better method and workmanship. I don't recall seeing any outside corner mouldings or un finished plywood edges painted brown. A cabinet door is a real door not a piece of plywood with mouldings glued on the edges.

The exterior doors are dogged and gasketed The windows are of much better quality they look like they will actually work and keep working. They aren't built of fuzzy track that without constant attention will look like a sixth grade science project about growing mold.

They have great acoustical insulation to keep things quiet. I believe the hull lay ups are considerably heavier than Hats and I don't think they have the blister history Hat's do.

The engine space is just plain smarter it's laid out better things are easier to see and service in general.

To get more specific I'd have to get on one with the intention of making a comparision.

Now you guys asked me a fair question and I did the best I could to answer it. So now I'll put the same question to you. Lets here why you think the Hats are of better quality?

BTW Grand Banks was mentioned here and I would never compare a GB to a Hat as far as quality is concerned the Hat blows it away. In fact I think the only asian built production boats I would compare to Hat's is the Nordy and the Marlow. The Marlow to me apears a little better but they have not been around long enough to make a fair comparision. Prior to buying a Hat I owned an Albin, Heritage, and a Sea Ranger. All asian built boats and not even close to Hat Quality.

I also believe in the used boat market a Hat is without question the very best value for the dollar. I can't speak for new because I would never buy a new boat and just don't pay any attention to the cost of new.

Brian

[jim rosenthal]

A very interesting debate and one I am glad to see occurring, because I have been a fan of Nordhavns for years. A couple of points worth mentioning:

-Nordhavn (actually Pacific Asian Enterprises, who is the real company- Nordhavn is a trademark, used for it's obvious associations with Scandinavian boats) contracts out their builds to reputable Asian yards. I don't know whether they are using PRC or Taiwan or HK yards but it really doesn't matter. What matters is whether you have someone on site all the time watching the process, and they do. The yards will do pretty much what you ask them to do and what you are willing to pay for. If you want a cheap boat, they will build you a cheap boat (Marine Trader, for example). If you want a good boat, they will build that, too. And a Nordhavn is a very good boat.

-Nordhavns have been driven all over the planet in conditions about as bad as you could imagine and always gotten their owners to port in one piece- boat and passengers/crew alike. They are pretty damn tough boats. As far as I am aware, no one has lost their life on a Nordhavn nor has there been a sinking. This despite literally hundreds of thousands of miles that these boats have been cruised in some of the worst weather and inaccessible places on the globe. You really can't ask for better than that. Granted, they are not particularly roomy (until you get up in the really large ones) but they are very solid and very safe boats with multiple redundant systems and they back their stuff up 100%. As far as "production" long-range cruisers go, they are considered the top of the heap. And deservedly so. Their customer support is the best there is.

-the LRCs made by Hatteras are excellent boats. I have friends who have seventy thousand miles on their 48 LRC (which was stretched to 56, I think). While they may not be as good a boat as a Nordhavn, they are also twenty years older. They have held up and held their value quite well, although I don't know about today's market. I haven't looked lately. I don't know which brand holds value better. The numbers are small enough that it may be very difficult to figure it out.

Marlow have taken a different approach to boatbuilding in the Orient; they went over and built their own yards from scratch. The yards are wholly owned by Marlow and all they build is their products. They claim that their QC is better than anyone's. Well, who knows? They are nice boats, no question, and well made, but I haven't been on one to compare and I've never been on one out on the water.

Overall I have to agree with Brian on this one. Nordhavns are built for a rather small market segment who want the best and are willing to pay for it. The premium is not on bling with a Nordhavn- it is on safety, strength and reliability and also self-sufficiency, which is a hard quality to engineer into a small boat, but they've done it. I think their philosophy is that the boat has to be able to take care of itself and its' owners and passengers, in what may be very adverse conditions. I am not sure that ANY standard MY or SF/convertible is built as well as a Nordhavn, although I'd put money on a Hines-Farley being built as well as any small craft on the planet. Just to put it into perspective, quite a few years ago the big Hines-Farley (which is about 56-58 feet) cost five million dollars. You always pay for what you pay for, and sometimes you even get what you pay for. I think if you want the best production displacement boat on the market, you buy a Nordhavn. They have become the standard to which everything else is compared.

[spartonboat1]

[QUOTE=GJH;118445]Sparton, you are talking about the GB Alaskan, not Aleutian series, and that was 40 years ago. I would note that your experience aside, there are still a surprising number of those things around.

QUOTE]
Thanks for the correction, you are quite right...surprised that slipped by me.

[GJH]

Brian, thanks for the thoughtful response.

Point taken on the joinery and woodwork, which has always been a relative strength of the Asian boats. I'd have to say however, that the 27 year old woodwork on my boat and older Hatts I've seen has held up pretty darn well.

Agree on the windows, they design them for cross ocean voyages (mostly use Freemans, I believe). I like the vertical lift design which is less susceptible to getting crudded up and corroded like the sliders on our boats. These do introduce a rather "industrial" look to the boat and smaller windows, so it is an aesthetic consideration in addition to a "how you'll use it" one. BTW, I happen to like the look of the Nordhavns. They also have better windshields than the Hatts, both LRCs and motoryachts. There is an older N50 in the slip right next door to me, one of the few designs they did without the reverse windshield. It is one of the boats that made the Atlantic flotilla crossing when it was known as "Two Across". Very tight.

I disagree on the engine spaces. At least compared to my boat and the various flavors of LRCs I have been on, and certainly to what you see on most of the current line up. I have squeezed through the ERs of a 46, 50, 55, 62, 72 Nordhavn and while there are a lot of well thought out features given the things are designed to be out in the middle of an open ocean, I have yet to see one I would trade for mine, the 48, 58 or 65 LRC or what I saw this past week on the new 60, 64 or 72 Hatts.

I tend to disagree on the lay-up integrity and ruggedness, though you have to grant the issue with cosmetic blisters. Of course both Nordhavn and modern day Hatteras learned from those that went before them. A surveyor would be far more qualified to render this judgement. A huge amount of the Nordy's weight comes from ballast.

While at Thunderbolt Marine this fall, there was a 62 on the hard and we became friendly with the professional captain and crew. This was a rather famous boat under prior ownership and had been across the pond and back on its own bottom. The current captain had brought it back from Malta. The one thing the guy really liked about the boat was the ER layout and was quite proud to show it to me. When I showed him mine, he went "ooohh....wow.." Of course it is an apples to oranges comparison, and my hull design cannot comfortably cross the Atlantic. He was less than impressed by other aspects of the N62, but both the prior and current owner had done some dilettante "upgrades" so it is not a fair condemnation of boat generally. One of his comments was "I can see why the PO was eager to sell this boat". The prior owner then went out and bought a new N68. I have always like the looks of the N62, but it got a big ixnay from the Chief of Staff. I'd like still to see the three stateroom version.

Jim, there is a rotting N62 on the rocks between San Diego and Cabo and at least one other sinking I don't recall the details of. No boat is immune to human error. The flotilla crossing of the Atlantic was not problem free either despite the extensive preparations. In general the Nordhavn tends to be owned by a serious minded mariner, especially the ocean crossers. But for that matter so do the Krogens and Diesel Ducks.

I love the Marlows, and they have very nice ERs and systems. But in talking to an otherwise happy owner at Thunderbolt, they have not been without their issues. But really, what boat isn't? I love the look and feel of the Marlows. They have stolen a lot of the franchise that was once Hatteras' almost exclusively along with Fleming, Offshore, Ocean Alexander, Alaskan, Symbol and others. Just another of a plethora of American companies challenged by the Asian cheap labor, but I also think design and "listening to the customer" has a lot to do with it, as the aforementioned companies all have Americans deeply involved in ownership, design (most are designed by American naval architects like Jim Crealock, Doug Zurn, Jack Sarin, Ed Monk Jr, et al.) and marketing.

Gee I think I might go back over to the show tomorrow and look at some more boats! All I can say is that whenever we do, we always come back to Incentive and say, "Boy, this is a really nice boat!", and never "golly, I really really wish we could have got a ____" Thought the Chief does a have a soft spot for some of the classic Burgers and their awesome aft decks.

[Pete]

I am not nearly as impressed with Nordhavn boats as some fellow HOF members, so let me take Brian's challenge and point out some of the facts and opinions that lead me to that conclusion. This is such a broad subject I am going to take my comments back to the original scope when starting this thread. There are boats, what equipment gets added to the basic boats and what people do with boats. I am going to limit my post to the boat itself. As I mentioned earlier, to my knowledge there is nothing that has been done by a Nordhavn that has not been done by home made sail boats, but that is a discussion for another day. So, the subject is Nordhavn boat quality as sold to its customers, with 2 to 5 years of use.

Hull Finish: Sight down the side of a Nordhavn and then do the same with a current production Hatteras or even my 32 year old LRC. Absolutely no comparison in the fairness of the hull top sides. About six months ago I looked at a new 77 Hatteras SF sitting at the New Bern Sheraton docks with a gloss black hull. The topside were as fair as the window glass in the cabin. With 5 axis routers to build hull plugs directly from CAD input, there is no excuse for less than fair hull sides these days. Nordhavn has to be able to do better in this area; do not know why they don't.

Underwater Hardware: Both of the Nordhavn's I recently saw on the hard had bottom paint "halo" burn. This is the condition where stray current electrolysis burns the bottom paint copper off the hull around the bonded fittings. Could be the only two Nordhavn's with this problem, but odds are that is not the case. Also, I looked at the through hull fittings where the halos exist and saw serious visible pitting of the bronze fittings; one was so pitted that if it were my boat I would have replaced it, and this on a two year old boat.

Hull Tracking: Nordhavn carries about 25% of its displacement as lead ballast in the keel. Everyone I have seen also has active fin stabilizers. And I know of one hull after market add on to improve tracking in following seas. My LRC with stabilizers loves following seas. Just turn over the steering to the autopilot, turn on the stabilizers, and it is as fine a ride as you would want.

Interior Fit and Finish: I need to divide fit and finish. The interior fit of the wood components is excellent, much like current production Hatteras boats, and superior to my LRC. The finish is a different story. Back in 1969 I purchased my first boat, a 25 foot Trojan Sea Raider. The interior was mahogany with a semi transparent stain with an orange hue. The interior of the Nordhavn had a finish that looked the same to me. Not the stained wood with clear coats look, but tinted product that with enough coats would hide the grain completely. On the Nordhavn the grain was still visible but muted. Much less appealing that current Hatteras finishing in my opinion, but again superior to my LRC, but not by much.

And yes the exterior doors are better quality than the sliders on my LRC, but similar to Hatteras current production in my opinion. And I suspect the bottom hull thickness is impressive to account for carrying the tons of lead ballast in the keel. I know my hull has a basic bottom thickness of 3/4 inch and a basic topside thickness of 5/8 inch. When I did the bow thruster the plugs removed were just over an inch, due to overlap and tabbing in the area

Let me stop at this point as my goal is not to say Nordhavn is anything other than a fine boat. All boats have pros and cons, all boats have some problems. My intent is to disagree with the hype the Nordhavn Brand Image Team is selling. The Nordhavn is another top end boat that competes with others in the category, but at a price I do not understand. I am not buying what the Brand Image Team is selling. If you have the March 2009 Passagemaker magazine, check out page 12, the Nordhavn ad. Center column of the text states, "With a reputation as being the most rugged, safest boats out there, it's not surprising that a lot of novice cruisers place their confidence in a Nordhavn". Not sure what valid survey supports this claim, but it sure looks like they are going for the "less informed with money" market segment. Take a few minutes to read and analyze the entire ad if you have it. It is very telling of their market strategy. In my opinion this should be a case study for future MBA programs in managing a brand to optimize profits.

Pete

[Brian Degulis]

I think you would find a lot more of the "less informed with money" crowd riding around in Hat's and lots of other MY's than you would the Nordhavn's.

Brian

[GJH]

You are completely right about that Brian. Nordhavn has done a good job of going after the informed-with-money crowd. But they are no fools, they have a business to run, and when you are selling high end boats the most important customer segmentation specification is "with money" (informed or not). Especially now, they cannot grow or even stay level without creating new customers.

I think they are trying to make their boats less intimidating to the novice without compromising the core constituency. They tried to be a little more "yachty" with the designs of the old 50 and 57, and scrapped that for the more industrial looking 47 (very successful boat) and 55. Now they have to inform the uniformed as to why that is a good thing. I have complete respect for them as business people as well as boatsmen.

Ironically we were looking at the brochure on line here for our boat and a few others last night. Pete, go take a look. It would even make the modern day Sea Ray blush. You would think it is for a condo, not a sea going vessel. Comical, even. We Hatteras apologizers are hardly the ones to cast the first stone.

[Pete]

"With a reputation as being the most rugged, safest boats out there, it's not surprising that a lot of novice cruisers place their confidence in a Nordhavn". I did not write the ad copy, only directed your attention to it. If you do not like it make that known to Nordhavn. And if that wording is not a play for the "less informed with money" folks, then tell me what it is. BTW, the more affectionate segment description for this segment is MMTB (More Money Than Brains). If you read the entire ad it only reinforces it is a play for those who do not have the knowledge to make an informed decision. No discussion of the boat, simply a play that if a Los Angeles Sheriff's Department rescue department employee, who along with his wife, who both have Captain's licenses, decided on a Nordhavn, then you should also. Flip back to pages 6 and 7 and read the Krogen ad for a contrast. They describe their boats and invite you to learn more about them. Read the last paragraph of page 6 which sounds like a little competitive talk about Nordhavn. At least they are talking about the boat, not who bought one. And, have you wonder just what the pay scale is for a rescue worker in Los Angeles?

George, I find the Hatteras 56 MY (I think you have a 56 ??) brochure to be fine. It describes what the boat is with the slightest bit of puffing and expects the potential buyer to be able to decide. And yes, it does describe a comfortable cruising boat, that is not designed to do ocean crossings. Just what it is.

Finally, I again will try to take the discussion back to the boat. Wavy hull topsides, electrolysis causing through hull halo and pitting, 1969 level interior finishes, and less than straight tracking in following seas are not in my description of the best trawler money can buy. And if the best reason the manufacturer can give for why you should purchase one is that someone I do not know bought one in Los Angeles, I will just keep looking.

Pete

[captddis]

One thing on the taiwan interiors, People oooh and aaah over the joiner work but look close there are no bungs or screws because it is all interior grade knotty plywood covered with veneer. A water leak anywhere and everything delaminates. When exhaust systems or other hidden items need work, the sawzall is the tool of choice. Then reveneer the area.

Speaking of exhaust, I have seen numerous Taiwan boats built with pvc pipe covered with fiberglass used for exhaust systems. They get real ugly on an overheat.

I have a 55 Targa I service. the boat must of had a list so the Chinese dumped a couple burlap sacks full of odd steel bolts and nuts outboard of the gen. The sacks have rotted and now there is a pile of rust behind the gen.
They use what they have available.

If you want to compare boats look in the places you do not see!

[GJH]

Pete, look at that brochure again. Now tell me, what is the length, (hull and/or LOA), beam and draft of my boat. What kind of engines? Fuel and water capacity? Standard equipment? Hull form, performance specs? Construction above/ below waterline? ANYTHING that discusses it's attributes as a boat? And this is an 8 page brochure, not a one or two page ad. So who was Hatteras marketing to? To be sure, not all the brochures are that bad. It just says that a company selling production product to a high end clientele has to market broadly.

Still, I suppose a knowledgeable yachtsman of the day would have seen that brochure after walking a yard where some Hatts were having blister jobs done, and just kept on looking.