Capt. Freds marine services

Hello all,

I have a question about Capt. Fred's marine services. Has anyone ever done any business with
Them? I am planning on driving down to take a look at some cummins VT8-370-M engines they have for sale.

They could only tell me the 370 designation and the capitol 2:1 gears. One has been rebuilt and one is a running take out. I am concerned because how can you rebuild an engine unless you have an exact model number?

They have been nice to deal with so far and have agreed to show me parts list for the rebuild and run the motors for me.

Thanks for any advice,

E

Why those engines? Is that what you have?

Well,

I pulled the 871s out to begin rebuilding. Both Motors need overhaul. M20s are shot. Considering the price to rebuild motors and gears I can have running motors and gears at half the cost and time.

I spoke with Tom Slane at length about these motors and they should be fine for the application.

Why, have you had a bad experience with the VT8 370 M?

E

Its a lot of work to put in old technology. They have not been made in 30 years. Although many parts are available I would think they are expensive to repair based on the limited number of running engines.

We had a water pump go bad on a customers 555. There were none available and the lead time was not weeks but months and the cost $$$$$ (and we are a cummins dealer). We just had a customer pick up a pair of 903's as spares for his dive boat because he cant get parts all the time and re powering means replacing the motor and transmission. His transmission will not fit on the new cummins blocks or we would have done it already since it was rebuilt 5 hours before a valve dropped and destroyed the engine.

If you are going from detroits you will need to replace the motor mounts, water and fuel may need to be moved or changed out and of course remember the transmissions. I would either look for a pair of RTO 871's with transmissions or rebuild your and know you have a serviceable and solid pair of engines.

I have considered all of those options. I realize that the 555 and the 903's had problems. The engine mounts in my boat are shot and will need to be rebuilt anyway. $6500.00 for a pair of working engines is still something to look at as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatnomad

I have considered all of those options. I realize that the 555 and the 903's had problems. The engine mounts in my boat are shot and will need to be rebuilt anyway. $6500.00 for a pair of working engines is still something to look at as well.

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Compared to how much to rebuild your old ones?

Remember other than the new mounts they are almost drop ins. That can save a ton of labor

Well 5-7k in rebuilding M20s. 3k in Heads. 4-5k in liners, pistons, bearings and gaskets. One of the blowers needs rebuilding. Motor mounts. vs 6500.00 and re routing some fuel lines and control cables and exhaust elbow.

If I build the 8v71s then I know exactly what I have. Its a bit of a gamble I know.

e

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatnomad

Well 5-7k in rebuilding M20s. 3k in Heads. 4-5k in liners, pistons, bearings and gaskets. One of the blowers needs rebuilding. Motor mounts. vs 6500.00 and re routing some fuel lines and control cables and exhaust elbow.

If I build the 8v71s then I know exactly what I have. Its a bit of a gamble I know.

e

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It's never that easy to change from one engine type to another. What scares me is that after doing it a simple issue can cause a catastrophic failure in the RTO's and then you get to start all over again.

Scott,

I woke up this morning saying the same thing to myself. I've spent a ton of time on this project already and a supposed shortcut at this point could just end up being more time and $$ wasted.

I know you are right. I'm just going to rebuild these motors and transmissions carefully and know exactly what I have. "dance with the one that brung ya"

Thanks for the gut check,

e

We had a customer with a pair of 1976 perkins that were in great shape have a catastrophic failure running them easy on the trip to CT last summer. Something let go and the rod ripped through the block and broke off the starter. They had about 7K hours on them and should have gotten at least that much more. It just shows to go you that you never know what is happening inside those engines.

If they were both full rebuilds maybe but remember the next owner may not think they are serviceable.

Glad I could help.

I looked at a 53MY 1972 a few years back that was delivered new with VT8-370M's. Those motors were "fine" for that application, but they were no better than 8v71n's. It is much easier to find parts and service for the old Detroits than it is for those old Cummins. I would not swap them. You can probably find some 8v71 take outs if you don't want to rebuild what you have.

I've come back to my senses. I was momentarily lured away from the correct path by the illusion of the quick fix.

I am rebuilding the 871s and the m20s. Thanks for reminding me.

E

Once you get the price to rebuild the Allisons, compare that to new Twin Disc, you might be surprised.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatnomad

I've come back to my senses. I was momentarily lured away from the correct path by the illusion of the quick fix.

I am rebuilding the 871s and the m20s. Thanks for reminding me.

E

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I think you should do some more research before doing anything. If the engines are coming out and the you need to rebuild everything including the gears, then a repower might make more sense. A set of remaned Cummins B or C series would be a huge upgrade and may cost the same or less. It's going to run you at least 40K to do all the rebuild work plus the cost to reinstall. If you have a bad crank or bad cores, that price could easily be 60K or more. Even if you do the work yourself, the parts to do it right will cost you a small fortune. Check your prices before you make a decision. I think you are too low on parts cost. 16 cylinder kits is going to run you at least 5-6K for after market. I just paid $2500 for a new head and my cylinder kits were $450 each. This was for a 92 series engine so the cost may be a bit different but not that much. Add in the cost for all new hoses, clamps, going through the heat exchangers, manifolds, coolers etc and you'll see that the cost of doing it right can be significant. Not trying to scare you but it's best to know what you're getting into before it's too late.

Here's what I have so far.

4200.00 for engine kits (bearings, pistons, liners, rings and gaskets)
1088.00 for injectors
250.00 to have heat exchangers dipped and pressure tested.
5000.00 M20 rebuild
800.00 for blower
1600.00 for manifolds
3000.00 for both sets of heads
400.00 rebuilding both starters
800.00 machine shop for cleaning/machining block and sizing liners.
5000.00 to build the motors (best friend is diesel mech.)
5280.00 to install in boat. (2 guys 4 days 55/hr 12hr days)
Crank shaft and connecting rods are good.
27,418 so round up to 30k for misc.

I can hear the entropy fairy screaming misc. 10k

so 40k when its all said and done.

The advantage I have here is that I won't need to reroute any fuel lines or control lines or exhaust risers and the fabricator can just work of the position and design of the old mounts.

Also being involved in the tear down and build of each engine will give me a much better understanding for the future and its already been fun. I realize that trying to rationalize any of this financially is a joke. Its a boat. I have already made huge mistakes along the way but each time I learn something new. The fellowship and the process is something I enjoy.

I hope I'm not a pain asking too many questions here while I bumble along this path.

Thanks for the guidance,

E

Compare that to a pair of cummins 8.3's from the reman program and see if new is better. remember the cummins has a warranty. Will your mechanic give you one too?

FYI I know the cummins will be HIGHER COST.

I have been quoted 34k for reman 3208 cats with new gears.

What would the price for reman cummins be?

I have a friend who re powered his boat. He sent me this great picture of himself with a huge wake spreading out behind him from the flybridge of his 60' boat doing 33kts.

I sent him a message "I have a dream that one day Karla will float and move under her own
power"

He sent back. "That day will come my friend but by then you will be dead inside"

I guess I just need to do the research, make a choice and be happy with what ever happens after that.

E

The cummins remans are from the cummins factory as new with a full factory warranty. They are based on current engines and far better than the 3208,s. I would guess $35k per side.

One of our club members has a 53MY which was repowered with C series Cummins from the "reman" program. The reman engines are a great deal, because virtually all of what is in the engine is new, and they are warranteed. If you don't have to have common-rail engines (and to repower and old boat you don't) they are just fine. John's boat, for a 53MY, is very quick- easy cruise at 20 knots, which is blazing speed for a 53MY.

For all that money, you might be better off to repower the boat- granted, you will never get your money out, but you won't in any event, no matter what you do. So it becomes a process of seeing how much in the way of updates you can afford to buy, or want.

If you plan to put the Detroits back in, you might compare the cost of TD gears, which are still made, to rebuilding the old gears. Neither Capitols or Allisons are still made, if I am right on this. TD and Tonan and ZF are still made.

If I were going to all that trouble, I would at least get an estimate on repowering with Cummins C series engines. My guess is that they are about $25K each, plus gears, and you want ZFs. The boat will go faster, use less fuel to do it, run quieter, and service access will be much better. Cummins engines seem to be the best small marine diesels around (yes, these are small) If you really love the boat, maybe it's worth it. You have to be committed to keeping it for a very long time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatnomad

Here's what I have so far.

4200.00 for engine kits (bearings, pistons, liners, rings and gaskets)
1088.00 for injectors
250.00 to have heat exchangers dipped and pressure tested.
5000.00 M20 rebuild
800.00 for blower
1600.00 for manifolds
3000.00 for both sets of heads
400.00 rebuilding both starters
800.00 machine shop for cleaning/machining block and sizing liners.
5000.00 to build the motors (best friend is diesel mech.)
5280.00 to install in boat. (2 guys 4 days 55/hr 12hr days)
Crank shaft and connecting rods are good.
27,418 so round up to 30k for misc.

I can hear the entropy fairy screaming misc. 10k

so 40k when its all said and done.

The advantage I have here is that I won't need to reroute any fuel lines or control lines or exhaust risers and the fabricator can just work of the position and design of the old mounts.

Also being involved in the tear down and build of each engine will give me a much better understanding for the future and its already been fun. I realize that trying to rationalize any of this financially is a joke. Its a boat. I have already made huge mistakes along the way but each time I learn something new. The fellowship and the process is something I enjoy.

I hope I'm not a pain asking too many questions here while I bumble along this path.

Thanks for the guidance,

E

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There's a lot missing from that list and some of those prices seem too low, particularly the cost for the kits, injectors and the heads. Don't forget all the gaskets, bearings, coolers, hoses etc. It's going to add up and you need to do it all. The cost to reinstall and the gear rebuild seem about right based on the hours but I would add more time on the install. You should be rebuilding the blower on both engines and at if you don't go through the other gear, you should at least do the clutches while you have it out. Don't forget the motor mounts. They are problematic and very expensive to replace. As for changing gears, it wouldn't be worth it. You need to change the bell housing to run anything but the Allisons. Look into Cummins remans and see what the cost will really be. Look for other engine deals, you may get a deal on a pair of surplus engines.

The costs I have listed are actual prices.

We get our parts from Turbo Diesel in Atlanta. $68.00 for N70 injectors

The machine shop in Greenville charges me $1500 for heads.

The Radiator Shop in Spartanburg is great. They dipped the heat exchangers and pressure tested them.

$800.00 is the cost of building the blowers. I think its just the difference between "truck" parts and "boat" parts.

If anyone ever needs parts/help with 871s I will gladly get you in touch with my folks.


E

Look on Boatdiesel, there are some good deals on pairs of engines there, if you watch for a while and keep your eyes open.