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AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Hi friends: I have my New Year Eve trip at the corner and still don't find my problem. The port breakers from saloon sink counter to V berth including bathroom dead suddenly. One day my boys are looking Tv and the zoom no power. First I tested and no ground appear no nothing all outlets dead but the outlets of the aft cabin in port side connected to that breaker are good. I checked several times and yes that outlets are connected to the same breaker. I changed yesterdey all switches and outlets in the dead area but nothing changed. This is getting me crazy, I checked for burn cables or terminals nothing for the moment. I put power in one outlet ground and the breaker jump to off so that's the breaker and his working because I have a portable air cond in the aft cabin connected to the outlet. Please any advice? Thanks and Happy New Years Eve! Mario
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
You should have a ground fault outlet in the forward head ... check that it didn't trip out thus cutting off the rest of the outlets in that circuit beyond it. There should also be a ground fault outlet in the galley ... check it also.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
The GFI outlets will trip and shut all the other outlets down the line off. As stated above that sounds like a real good place to start.
If they do not look like they tripped press the test and reset buttons anyway. If the do not reset check for current going in to them.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
+1 on a single GFI dropping all the outlets. If you changed all the outlets and they are not working at all something else is wrong. If the GFI pops immediately then something is miswired or grounding by accident.
If the latter is the case disconnect everyone else from the GFI and test the circuit with an ohmeter.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
When I bought my boat, it had a 6 from 2 receptacle expander plugged into one of the outlets. The GFCI on that circuit (upstream) would trip intermittently until I unplugged that expander. Apparently it was leaky. If you have anything like this, try removing it.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Be sure to check your ground connections, if neutral and ground are reveresed this problem can occur, it could be on anything connected to the faulty circuit. You can try unplugging or disconnecting things on that branch of the circuit, wjhen the problem goes away that was the culprit causing the problem. The GFI compares the diffenence between the hot and the neutral, if they are unequal then another path for return current is present, and can be dangerous. Ground and neutral should not be tied together except at the source.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Hi: the only strange thing I noticed replacing the outlets was a outlet in thr top of the bathroom (outside) beside the windows. This one was very rare and don't have ground connected the ground was hanging. When I installed the new outlet I attach them. Other thing was an outlet in the head that have a switch beside them that switch was completly loose in his interior and I don't know what is the purpoise of them. I still don't change them he have a black cable that came from the outlet, ground that came from the outlet and a black cables that goes behind the wall I think to light that the previous owner installed in the wall that don't want to work either. Apart to that I completly lost here. Thanks to everyone I will try again tomorrow
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
first thing to check is that you have power at the breaker, on the out terminal. use a multimeter to check that (red lead on the terminal, black lead to you neutral bus.
if you do then go to the first outlet and check for power. your electrical blue print (if you have them) will show which outlet is the first one in the circuit.
if no power there, the problem can be either with the hot or with the neutral wire. an easy way to test both, is get some wire (single wire, any gauge will do) and connect it to the neutral bus. bring the other end to the outlet you're testing, put the black lead of your meter on that wire and test the outlet again.
if you have power, then you know the problem is with your neutral wire. check the neutral bus to see if you have a loose wire.
if you dont' have power then you're likely to have an issue in the wiring from the panel to that first outlet.
if you're not sure which outlet is the first one in your circuit, then you may have to test each of them individually.
there are two problems with older boats... first over the years owners or "mechanics" may have done some creative wiring and cause issues. like taping into a circuit to feed something, then 20 years later that connection corrodes or comes loose and you dont' know it's even there, somewhere...
the other one is that back then Hatteras didn't use tin wire or shrink tubing on connectors. with years, they get get some corrosion, come loose, etc... you get some arcing in the connector and eventually the connection fails.
the switch is likely a switch for a light. it's fed from the oulet and power is sent to the light fixture. the switch only cuts out the hot. The neutral is probably going straight to the fixture. Again, it may be original or not...
the key to successful electrical troubleshooting is to go step by step, from the source (breaker) testing both wires until you see where one of them goes dead.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
first thing to check is that you have power at the breaker, on the out terminal. use a multimeter to check that (red lead on the terminal, black lead to you neutral bus.
if you do then go to the first outlet and check for power. your electrical blue print (if you have them) will show which outlet is the first one in the circuit.
if no power there, the problem can be either with the hot or with the neutral wire. an easy way to test both, is get some wire (single wire, any gauge will do) and connect it to the neutral bus. bring the other end to the outlet you're testing, put the black lead of your meter on that wire and test the outlet again.
if you have power, then you know the problem is with your neutral wire. check the neutral bus to see if you have a loose wire.
if you dont' have power then you're likely to have an issue in the wiring from the panel to that first outlet.
if you're not sure which outlet is the first one in your circuit, then you may have to test each of them individually.
there are two problems with older boats... first over the years owners or "mechanics" may have done some creative wiring and cause issues. like taping into a circuit to feed something, then 20 years later that connection corrodes or comes loose and you dont' know it's even there, somewhere...
the other one is that back then Hatteras didn't use tin wire or shrink tubing on connectors. with years, they get get some corrosion, come loose, etc... you get some arcing in the connector and eventually the connection fails.
the switch is likely a switch for a light. it's fed from the oulet and power is sent to the light fixture. the switch only cuts out the hot. The neutral is probably going straight to the fixture. Again, it may be original or not...
the key to successful electrical troubleshooting is to go step by step, from the source (breaker) testing both wires until you see where one of them goes dead.
Did you just suggest testing 110 v circuits with a wire into the source and the power on? There is a reason meters come with short leads.
OSHA should hear about that.
DO NOT PLAY WITH LIVE POWER FOR TESTING LIKE STATED ABOVE. We do not need to lose any members.
Unplug the boat and test the circuits for continuity with the power off. If you need to track down where wires go get a fox and hound. If you are absolutely sure the outlets that do not work are on the same circuit as ones that do you need to see where the circuit branches. It may not be on the same circuit breaker as you think or it may branch somewhere and an outlet or junction box has failed.
Check the GFCI outlets first though.
Older boats had a 2 wire systems. newer ones a 3. Know about yours before trying to trouble shoot.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
unlike you i think most members here are intelligent enough to take the necessary precaution and use common sense when working on electrical system... Neutral is not going to kill you especially since it's often bonded to ground anyway so touching the neutral is pretty much like touching the metal case of the fridge.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
unlike you i think most members here are intelligent enough to take the necessary precaution and use common sense when working on electrical system... Neutral is not going to kill you especially since it's often bonded to ground anyway so touching the neutral is pretty much like touching the metal case of the fridge.
But you told him to test continuity to the hot at the outlet. Hot is hot no matter where you are in the circuit it is not a safe way to test. Meters have settings other than voltage.
Unlike you I am not the infallible know it all that thinks he needs show everyone how much he knows all the time.
Maybe you tested too many live circuits like this already so you are immune to the shock but that is not the way to do it.
The first thing a professional would do after plugging in an outlet tester is to shut all power and unplug the boat then tear into the wiring. Turning off the breakers is no guarantee that current is not present.
FWIW even if he is working with the neutral there is still probably 2 hot legs at the panel representing 30-50 amps of 220 which will more than ruin his day. Hit it with a toll or a ring and bad things happen.
I have to ask what are your electrical qualifications?
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
In the 43DC heads that switch might control the 120 v AC light or 120 v AC exhaust fan. There is also a switch to control the 12 v DC light.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
unlike you i think most members here are intelligent enough to take the necessary precaution and use common sense when working on electrical system... Neutral is not going to kill you especially since it's often bonded to ground anyway so touching the neutral is pretty much like touching the metal case of the fridge.
I have no idea where your head is, but, being the neutral carries the return current , if the neutral is open and you become part of the return path your likely to feel it. Anybody with common sense will always try to trouble shoot the proplem using continuity tests. The only electrical circuit that will not hurt you is the one turned off.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
first thing to check is that you have power at the breaker, on the out terminal. use a multimeter to check that (red lead on the terminal, black lead to you neutral bus.
if you do then go to the first outlet and check for power. your electrical blue print (if you have them) will show which outlet is the first one in the circuit.
if no power there, the problem can be either with the hot or with the neutral wire. an easy way to test both, is get some wire (single wire, any gauge will do) and connect it to the neutral bus. bring the other end to the outlet you're testing, put the black lead of your meter on that wire and test the outlet again.
if you have power, then you know the problem is with your neutral wire. check the neutral bus to see if you have a loose wire.
if you dont' have power then you're likely to have an issue in the wiring from the panel to that first outlet.
if you're not sure which outlet is the first one in your circuit, then you may have to test each of them individually.
there are two problems with older boats... first over the years owners or "mechanics" may have done some creative wiring and cause issues. like taping into a circuit to feed something, then 20 years later that connection corrodes or comes loose and you dont' know it's even there, somewhere...
the other one is that back then Hatteras didn't use tin wire or shrink tubing on connectors. with years, they get get some corrosion, come loose, etc... you get some arcing in the connector and eventually the connection fails.
the switch is likely a switch for a light. it's fed from the oulet and power is sent to the light fixture. the switch only cuts out the hot. The neutral is probably going straight to the fixture. Again, it may be original or not...
the key to successful electrical troubleshooting is to go step by step, from the source (breaker) testing both wires until you see where one of them goes dead.
I wouldn't make any assumptions with regard to safety and electricity. If he made a mistake and connected that test wire to the hot side, things could get ugly fast. Checking the basics is fine but unless you know someone has knowledge of electrical systems, I would be careful to give advise that could be damaging. The level of DIY abilities varies greatly here, and many things can be more than some members can handle. Most stuff on our boats can be handled be a DIYer but electricity can kill someone. Anyone working on electrical systems needs to be certain they know what they are doing. If someone is asking for help with why an outlet isn't working then I would think that maybe they shouldn't be working on live circuits.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Hatt taped wires together right from the factory. I had a intermittant breaker trip that went on for years. Found a taped conection that was touching under the forward bunk where no man had gone before (except bubba at the factory)
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
New to this site and want to ask some questions about purchasing a Hatt. How do I go about it?
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsmith
I prefer vintage stetsons but the new custom made ones are fine too.
He spelled HATT with 2 t's therefore he must be looking for a boat.
There are a few of us "in the business" on the site that can help depending on where you are located and what type of boat you are looking for.
Just remember that if you ask 10 people something here you will get 15 answers. We are proud owners and very opinionated about out boats.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
you dno't have to touch anything... turn power off, clip a wire to the Neutral bus with an isolated connector on the other end and you're safe. turn the power back on and check for voltage between the outlet hot and that neutral feed.
i keep forgetting about our resident knit-pickers...
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
you dno't have to touch anything... turn power off, clip a wire to the Neutral bus with an isolated connector on the other end and you're safe. turn the power back on and check for voltage between the outlet hot and that neutral feed.
i keep forgetting about our resident knit-pickers...
You looked into a Mirror.....;)
Assuming people know what they are doing with electrical testing " or any thing to do with it" is a BAD IDEA.
If they know how to do it they don't ask!!!!!
That is why you have to be VERY careful on what you say!!!!
Oh I forgot who I was talking too :)
Trying to stop someone from getting shocked is not knit-picking ................
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
you dno't have to touch anything... turn power off, clip a wire to the Neutral bus with an isolated connector on the other end and you're safe. turn the power back on and check for voltage between the outlet hot and that neutral feed.
i keep forgetting about our resident knit-pickers...
Knit picker? Ahhh great response. Your comment about neutral not killing anyone is a total classic. It also tells you have little knowledge of electricity. Common sense dictates you trouble shoot with the power off, even the experts (which you are obviously not) do it.
Due to the rules of the forum, I have to restrain from expressing my true feelings, regarding your less than intelligent suggestions on this matter.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
In life there are risk takers and non risk takers.
I'm a risk taker. I raced motorcycles for 20+ years, I race cars still, I fly aerobatics. Oh, and I'm an engineer.
Even a risk taker like me thinks troubleshooting live ac circuits is idiotic and can get you killed.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
There are non-contact electrical probes for AC systems - go get one at Home Depot. It's a plastic pen-like thing that you turn on and then place close to (but not touching) the wire you think might be energized - if it is, it beeps.
With that you can trace the presence (or absence) of AC voltage without having to make contact with anything that is actually live. Nonetheless, if you're not comfortable working around line-power circuits call someone who is - you can be killed probing a live AC system, and it's easy to make a mistake. This is especially true on a boat where becoming inadvertently grounded (that's how you get killed most of the time when it happens) is quite easy.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
Neutral is not going to kill you especially since it's often bonded to ground anyway so touching the neutral is pretty much like touching the metal case of the fridge.
And if the neutral wire somehow got disconnected in the panel box or cut on somewhere along the way, it is easily possibly to have a neutral wire that is energized like the hot.
PS: Touching the metal case on a fridge can zap you under certain circumstances too. Bad things happen.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Tic Tracers were outlawed in the electrical industry years ago. They are a "cheater" to see if a circuit is alive or not. Once the circuit is off, it needs to be verified by a trusted meter, and if its hot enough, checked with a second known meter. I wouldnt stake my life against a meter thats made in Japan. Even if the line is off, we work between two grounds with a hot stick hooked on as a backup warning. The hot stick has to be verified at the beginning of every shift as well, with a second known good hotstick.
I had a co-worker lose a hand from a pinhole in his leather covered rubber linemans gloves. Electricity knows no quiting time. Rebel
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Genesis
There are non-contact electrical probes for AC systems - go get one at Home Depot. It's a plastic pen-like thing that you turn on and then place close to (but not touching) the wire you think might be energized - if it is, it beeps.
Karl,
That tool is nick-named a "widow-maker" in the industry. For someone with little knowledge or understanding, this tool can and will get someone killed. Best advice is to call a qualified electrician.
Jason
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J's Dream
Karl,
That tool is nick-named a "widow-maker" in the industry. For someone with little knowledge or understanding, this tool can and will get someone killed. Best advice is to call a qualified electrician.
Jason
For educational sake, why are they called widow-makers? Is this on high voltage stuff or low voltage?
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Since every single electrical question is answered by "get a qualified electrician" maybe we should just ban electrical question
Yes I know that you can get zapped by neutral but using a wire with an insulated terminal is safe and sonis connecting the other side of that wire to the neutral bus when power is off.
You can then us a meter to and it's insultaed probes to test for power.
Oh yeah make sure your hands are dry, that you are wearing shoes, avoid doing this while sitting on an engine, and don't do it while intoxicated, high, or under the influence of medication
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
krush
For educational sake, why are they called widow-makers? Is this on high voltage stuff or low voltage?
AC, 110 and up. They are notorious for not lighting up on a hot wire...giving people false confidence that the wire is not hot. If you have one of these tools, it can be used to verify power, but should be followed up with a good quality multimeter.
As for you, Pascal...if a question is presented like this, it indicates to me that the original poster is not familiar with troubleshooting electricity. So, yes...HIRE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN. Are you willing to say to him..."eh, go ahead, nothing will happen...you won't get hurt."? I'm not going to tell him that.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
Since every single electrical question is answered by "get a qualified electrician" maybe we should just ban electrical question
Yes I know that you can get zapped by neutral but using a wire with an insulated terminal is safe and sonis connecting the other side of that wire to the neutral bus when power is off.
You can then us a meter to and it's insultaed probes to test for power.
Oh yeah make sure your hands are dry, that you are wearing shoes, avoid doing this while sitting on an engine, and don't do it while intoxicated, high, or under the influence of medication
You forgot swimming or in the bath tub. I think the main concern here is most systems on our boats can be fixed by a DIY'er that has never worked on one of these. Electrical systems are different as mistakes can kill you and/or others. As I stated earlier, if someone is asking a basic electrical question, chances are they are not capable or qualified to do more involved or potentially dangerous work. I know a bit about medicine but don't think I should attempt brain surgery on myself. Putting on a Band-aid is fine but the heavy lifting should be done by a pro.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J's Dream
AC, 110 and up. They are notorious for not lighting up on a hot wire...giving people false confidence that the wire is not hot. If you have one of these tools, it can be used to verify power, but should be followed up with a good quality multimeter.
Great advice. I use one all the time to check if I have the correct breaker turned off by checking before and after. Then I check with the meter to make sure it's really dead. I never touch anything based solely on the result of the NCV detector.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J's Dream
Karl,
That tool is nick-named a "widow-maker" in the industry. For someone with little knowledge or understanding, this tool can and will get someone killed. Best advice is to call a qualified electrician.
Jason
If you're using it as described here (trying to figure out WHERE the energized line stops being energized) and NOT to verify whether power is off before working on something I don't see the issue.
Using one as a means of verifying whether power is off on a circuit you THINK you turned off (e.g. with a breaker but you're not sure you got the right one) is, as you mentioned, a good way to end up dead. And as mentioned repeatedly if you're uncomfortable working around line-voltage things (or for that matter high-current 12-48V things too) call someone qualified - it's not really all that hard to wind up seriously injured or worse working around electricity.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
REBEL
Tic Tracers were outlawed in the electrical industry years ago. They are a "cheater" to see if a circuit is alive or not. Once the circuit is off, it needs to be verified by a trusted meter, and if its hot enough, checked with a second known meter. I wouldnt stake my life against a meter thats made in Japan. Even if the line is off, we work between two grounds with a hot stick hooked on as a backup warning. The hot stick has to be verified at the beginning of every shift as well, with a second known good hotstick.
I had a co-worker lose a hand from a pinhole in his leather covered rubber linemans gloves. Electricity knows no quiting time. Rebel
That's why I use a Fluke. I keep my cheap Radio Shack meter on the boat for basic stuff, but when I need to be certain of the accuracy I break out the good meter.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J's Dream
As for you, Pascal...if a question is presented like this, it indicates to me that the original poster is not familiar with troubleshooting electricity. So, yes...HIRE A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN. Are you willing to say to him..."eh, go ahead, nothing will happen...you won't get hurt."? I'm not going to tell him that.
i never said that! I simply assumed the OP was aware that working on electrical system required certain precautions.
i'll stand by my statement that using the insulated probes of a multimeter on live circuit is something a boat owner should be able to do as long as he is careful and use common sense. calling the pro is fine but if you're 300NM from your home port it's easier said than done. troubleshooting electrical system is a basic boating skill.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
i never said that! I simply assumed the OP was aware that working on electrical system required certain precautions.
Do you know Mario? Have you met him? Discussed his knowledge? I certainly haven't...and would never "assume" someone knows to take precautions. I work in retail...and from what I've learned over the years is that few if any people have/use common sense. Being careful and using common sense are things you LEARN...I personally don't know if Mario (or you) have learned..........
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
The original poster's text indicates he's completely unfamiliar with electricity.
Giving him bad advice can get him killed.
Assuming he knows the basics qualifies as very bad advice.
Assuming ANYTHING on an old boat is done right can get you killed. I've seen conduit being used for the neutral!
Anyone who would expect the neutral isn't hot must have been sleeping in class the day that whole "complete circuit" concept was being discussed. The neutral is at the same potential as the hot if any circuits are completed (light dimmers on board? ZAP, you're DEAD MEAT). Circuits can be easily back-powered in ways you don't understand or see.
ALWAYS measure for voltage before working on ANY circuit with a KNOWN good meter, and understand what the meter is telling you. Is it an energized circuit or just induced voltage? You have to know how to tell the difference to safely work on any circuit with high potential, either voltage or amperage.
Then work on the circuit as if it were live anyway.
Safety first. You don't point unloaded guns at your head do you?
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
pascal your trying to defend your statement about neutral not killing anyone. Get over it, your wrong, fess up and get over it. Your spin doctor replies are nonsense. There are better, safer and easier ways to trouble shoot the problem with power removed. It's obvious to most people with basic electrical experience that your electrical expertise is severely limited.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
troubleshooting electrical system is a basic boating skill.
Ah come on. DC electrical maybe, but certainly not AC. There will NEVER be a situation where an AC problem keeps your from getting home where it can be properly addressed by somebody who knows what they are doing.
Come on Pascal, you need to punt on this one.
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
All I can add to the thread is "people in glasshouses should not throw bricks around"...it is so easy to pick on someones "good intentions" that were misplaced. This is the season for friendship and forgivness...DO IT...
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Maybe this one will make sense to those who understand.
"PINO's and EINO's" should not give advice on things they barely understand themselves.
Fact of the matter is no circuit is ever dead. No gun is ever unloaded. No wife is oh forget that one here.
There is never a reason to probe a live high voltage circuit. If you get an inductive tone generator and put it on the output of the breaker you can trace the wire to wherever it goes and back if it's going through devices to neutral or ground. This generator will allow you to trace the circuit safely and even test switched. I have used one many times but FIRST UNPLUG THE BOAT. ( and disconnect the inverter if you have one ).
Free advice may only be worth what you pay for it so be careful about who you listen to and always double check.
Now what happened to my post from last night?
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Re: AC electrical problem getting crazy!!
Ive been watching this post for 54 posts. Does this guy have a bad outlet, bad breaker, or a broken wire? rebel