Guys since I cant get any bites on this boat I going to go ahead and refinish it. So what is you alls expirence with Awlgrip or Imron? Any preferences? Cost of product. Any info would be great.
Thanks for your help
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Guys since I cant get any bites on this boat I going to go ahead and refinish it. So what is you alls expirence with Awlgrip or Imron? Any preferences? Cost of product. Any info would be great.
Thanks for your help
Use whichever one a good shop uses. I'm partial to Imron but far more important than the paint is the prep work. If a shop that is known to do good work prefers to use either paint - fine, go with the shop's reputation, not the paint.
have you looked at Aleseal? this paint replaces Algrip and is as tuff as Imron. would be glad to give you a quote on a paint job.
I'm told Awlgrip is a harder finish but more expensive and difficult to repair if damaged. Imron lasts as long, holds its shine and is easier to "buff out".
Will
Last winter I had my boat painted by Jarrett Bay. When I was discussing the job with Jeff and Bruce, their position was, you choose the top coat. The quoted cost for the job would be the same, and they were experienced in Imron, Awlgrip, and Alexseal. I did my home work, looked at newly refinished boats, and a few that had 5 to 10 years on the paint job. I chose Alexseal. Why? First, I dismissed Awlgrip because of its inability to do spot repairs. I need good spot repair capability, or my boat needs to stay in its slip. Next, Imron was a favorite of mine. Have had it on three boats, including the original factory finish on our current boat. But, with the current VOC regulations, the paint you get in the can today is not the same as the paint on your vintage Hatteras when it left the factory. Alexseal has the spot repair capability, and its appearance closely matches the original Imron, in gloss, and depth perception.
Other observations; Awlgrip has the greatest gloss when new, with the clear coat look of a new car. Imron tend to have more orange peel on the surface when new. The gloss of new Imron and Alexseal are the same to my eyes. Imron is the quickest to dry to the touch, Alexseal dries to the touch slower. I have personally sprayed Imron for 30 years, have sprayed Alexseal for 6 months on and off, just little stuff. I do not have experience spraying Awlgrip. Alexseal sprays as easy as Imron, and does not require the attention to orange peel.
As mentioned above, prep, prep,and more prep is your primary consideration on the final finish. If you are after a impressive final finish, you have to spray in a temperature controlled, filter air, spray booth. There is no free lunch when it comes to painting. Skill, equipment, time, prep, and attention to details is what really determines the appearance of the top coat, with any top coat you choose. And finally, be sure to look at the finished work product of the exact paint crew that may be painting your boat. That's my 2 cents on the subject, maybe 3 cents.
Pete
Imron and the other urethanes can be buffed which means after years of use you can get it to look almost like new. This is possible because the coating is softer. Awlgrip can not be buffed it is considered a no maintenance coating. With nothing but washing Awlgrip will last longer and hold a shine better but when it starts to fade it can not be brought back like Imron. Awlgrip requires more care in the application. This is because it's very difficult to fix because it can not be buffed. So if you get a run or some dust blows into it it really can't be fixed without compromising the job. Mil thickness and the sequence of coats are critical with Awlgrip. As the paint dries a clear resin layer floats to the top this makes the shine and gives it it's durability. The super finishes you see at boat shows are usually Awlgrip lots of coats were sequenced in one spraying operation so the resin layer is thick and the coating is durable.
So you decide wether you want a finish that will require some care but given that care will probably look better longer Imron. Or do want a better initial look and a no maintenance coating that ounce faded can not be brought back to original Awlgrip. For some areas the choice is simple the very best coating on a deck is Awlgrip. For the rest of the boat it all depends on what your after.
I like awlgrip I like the intial look and I don't want to maintain it other than washing. The projects i've done on our boat were all finished with Awlgrip. But because our boat is a 1985 I'm glad Hat used Imron because I can bring it back to an almost a new look if they had used Awlgrip I'd be looking at painting it.
Brian
If you need to spot repair, do not use Awlgrip unless you have worked with it before, it can be repaired but I found that after 2-3 yrs it can show the paint color shift slightly, my 70 ft is awlgripped and I do it myself. The prep work is mind numbing as is waiting for the correct the painting conditions if working outside. I have no experience with other products but Alexseal appears to be a good choice as is Interlux "perfection" my friend sprayed his 30 ft sailboat with it and was amazed at how good it came out and he is a boatbuilder. Worth exploring.
Thanks for the help guys.
If you would like to see an Alexseal paint job, just find a 5 year old or newer Hatteras on the docks somewhere and take a look. They have been using Alexseal on their new production for a while.
Pete
Eleven years ago I had an Awlgrip job done on a 43 DC. For whatever reasons (mostly because of a few runs here and there) the boat ended up with 5 or 6 coats of finish (Oyster). The job was absolutely fantastic and I was determined to follow the manufactuers maintaince recommendations to the letter, which included an application of"Awlcare" once or twice a year. The Awlcare product is very easy to apply and is not a wax or abrasive. It is some sort of polymer that keeps the surface sealed as I was told. Well here it is Eleven years later (I no longer own the boat) and the present owner has had it for about six years and maintains it with an annual application of Awlcare as well and it still looks like the day it was sprayed. I believe that in another eleven years, providing the care is still there, it will continue to look great. I had a discussion with some of the tech folks at the Awlgrip booths at boat shows and they seem to think that the combination of all the extra coats of paint and the annual Awlcare application is the reason it has been performing so well.
The repair question is something else, as I personally have no experience with them. Alexseal and Perfection look and seem fine and can be repaired, which is a definate plus, but longevity is usually an important consideration as well. Oh well, at my age (72), I'm sure either product will still look pretty good after I'm retired from boating in about another 20 or 30 years.
I'm thinking of contacting Roger W at Jarrett Bay to discuss some work on my present Hatt ('82, 48' MY) including a new paint job. I was very impressed with their carefullness with a paint job they did for one of our fellow HOFers about a year ago whereby they actually wrapped some towels around a power cord entering the newly painted boat through the stern door. Now details like that do not go unnoticed and they hopefully practice that and other considerations to insure that when the boat is done, it is as near to perfect as possible. Can't remember the boat or owner, perhaps it was Pete's?
Walt
I have a 1974 Hatteras 46 convertible. I have used one of the best paint guys on the Chesapeake Bay for years. He prefers Awlgrip. He's getting up in years and he has trained his sons well. They prefer Awlgrip II. I let them paint from the rub rails up with Awlgrip II two years ago. The shine is great. I don't think the corners have held up as good as the Awlgrip however. I am considering using the Axleseal on the hull because I'm worried about the wear factor of Awlgroip II with fenders etc. etc.
I'm with Roger at Jarrett Bay as they did my 45 Hatteras in 2007. THe Alex seal looks like the day I took the boat out of the yard. very shiny and easy to clean and polish. take a look at my pictures under George in the Gallery.
Well...a boat painted in 2007 is not much of a test for paint. My 53 was resprayed by the PO with Imron in 1995 and is almost daily assumed to be "just painted" by folks walking by the dock. It has never been waxed (and never will be).
FWIW, no car guys would ever consider Awlgrip for custom paint...Imron pretty much rules the car/bike world for custom finishes.
My boat was painted with Imron in 1999 or 2000, I wax it twice or more a year, paint shines like new. Years ago, a marina took a chunk out of the paint with a forklift, repaired it, and I can't tell where they resprayed.
Does anyone know how Imron does when you roll and tip? What is the best paint for roll and tip? Thanks!
Look at the videos on the interlux Perfection. It is a two part polyurethane.
Perfection has "fixed" colors, cannot make custom mix to match your own.
perfection is OK but when compared to awlgrip or Alexseal it will not last as long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Tobb
I don't know of anyone who was able to roll and tip Imron, Awlgrip or Sterling are much better suited for that.
The problem with trying to choose one of these paints is that, by the time the paint job has weathered enough to give one an idea, the maker will probably have changed their formula. Look at what the EPA is requiring manufacturers to do with regard to VOCs.
Probably the most important element to look for is the ability of your paint shop. The thickness of modern paints is so small that surface prep is critical. Removing all the scratches, then proper priming is essential. Go with whatever paint your shop is good at. This is probably more important than the brand of paint.
Fanfare has the correct answer. I have sprayed both Imron and Awlgrip. I prefer Imron, but I am a hack and need to wet sand and polish some of my work. Then there are the inevitable bugs that land on the fresh paint. Imron now comes ready to spray right out of the can. (Thanks for that go the govt. liberals.) Because of that I don't think rolling and tipping would be possible as the paint is way to thin for that.
I used to spray Imron and never tried awlgrip myself as the tips were different for the guns. I di the prep but had a painter familiar with it do the spray as he had the right tip.
I brushed and dipped things in clear awlgrip too but that was a different procedure.
Each paint is only as good as the application below it in too many instances the primer is not done well. Its 99% prep and if the prep is bad it wont matter the brand of paint. keep that in mind.
Do not compare the new paints to the old paint. boats that were painted in the 80's and 90's and even the early years of 2000's are not comparable to the new paint. These boats were painted with the old formulations for Imron and Awlgrip. The reason that these paints are now called Imron II and Awlgrip II is not because the paint companies came up with better paints, it's because the government made them reformulate the paints to reduce the voc's (volatile organic compounds). They did come out with new paint, but........., it's not even close to as good as the original formulation for Imron and Awlgrip. Your question and answers should be about the paints that are available NOW. So maybe 3 or 4 year old comparisons are all you can have! Compare apples to apples!
This begs the question: Are the old formulations still available? Could a guy buy them in Mexico, for example? Or are they just not produced anymore?
I have cruised with a neighbor who retired from Dupont about 6 or 7 years ago, that worked in the division that produces Imron. Do not remember the exact name of the division, but it is something close to the point of sale color mix division. I asked him about the change and his basic answer was there has been little change to the resins in Imron over the years, it is the thinners/carriers that had to be modified to meet the recent VOC requirements. Also, the lead was taken out, and some boat painters have told me that was the end of the ability to buff Imron to look like new after 10, 20, even 30 years.
BTW, my understanding of the "ready to shoot" packaging is it has two advantages that does not benefit the looks of a boat. First, you get less paint, as when the paint is mixed at the point of sale, they add 10% or so thinner. So now you get 90% as much paint as you did in the past, for a higher price, bottom line: less coverage for more money. Second reason, was for the tree huggers. The mix you receive has the minimum thinner to get the paint to flow out. Read as "orange peel". If you want it to flow better you need to add more thinner, which then causes the paint to not meet its VOC specifications. All instructions avoid any discussion of thinning as it is not allowed by law. While individuals doing touch up on their boat may be able to do this without any one showing up, commercial painters will likely not risk their business and savings.
Pete
Most of the time the manufacturer changes the formula the old formula is no longer produced and not available even in places it may be permitted. I'm not so sure that the new formulas are inferior to the old. Most of the paints I've worked with that were changed to comply with VOC regulations were simply re formulated to contain less solvents. That covered the manufacture's obligation. The painter was responsible to stay within the VOC limits and not replace the omitted solvents. Most small yards are never checked so the omitted solvents are added and your basically getting the old formulation. I guess time will tell but IMHO the new formulas are probably as good or better than the old provided it's the same basic product. Paints like Vinyl's and TBT antifouling were eliminated in the US and that's a different situation.
Brian
After 6 months of research on paint and painters, we're at Luu Marine in Ft. Lauderdale right now getting a Alexseal job done. If you're considering Alexseal, give their FL rep Jeff Holland a call - he is incredibly helpful and objective and lives and breathes boat paint. Drop me a private message and I'm happy to send his info.
Used to shoot a lot of Imron years ago but not for quite a while. An earlier post, above noted that it's 'ready to shoot out of the can." How can that be? Is it no longer a two-part paint? If not it is certainly not what it used to be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeP
Mike I believe the ready to spray from the can meant no thinning required. It still needs accelerator to cure properly. And yes it probably dries if you spray it without accelerator.
Agree, you get VOC compliant paint and thinner in the Imron paint can, and still need to add activator. My experience is IMRON never dries hard without activator. It dries to the stage that you will not get it on your fingers when just exposed to air for an extended period, but never to a useful finish.
Pete
There was a 1972 58ft Yachtfish here at our marina for a long time. Owned by an oil company and professionally maintained. They repainted at Georgetown Yachtbasin on the upper Chesapeake and used AWLGRIP in the old Hatteras Off White color that looks creamy.
All I can say is WOW. What a perfect job. AND it was all done roll and tip with the boat in the water vice any sort of shed. I would have sworn it was a spray booth job. Finish looked a foot deep.
Owning an exact sister ship from same year I was always envious. So I started doing my own AWLGRIP roll and tip work on topside stuff that needed it most. This is tediously difficult to do for the prep and base coat work. Only thing really hard about the finish coat work is getting a close paint match to the older stuff. Matching AWLGRIP to AWLGRIP for same color across different years and batches is reliable.
For roll and tip, AWLGRIP has a high build sanding base formulation that you put on roll and tip then sand smooth and recoat. Two coats are required but three or more and careful sanding can get you a glass smooth finish with no hint of orange peel.
Now for the hitch. Doing this when it is too hot or too cold or too much full sun can mess up the final finish with bubbles in the heat or sags and runs in the cold. If you are working outside, and unexpected rain can ruin a coat.
But if you are cheap or poor and have the time, you can do this yourself.
Two-part paints like Imron and Awlgrip don't "dry"- they chemically cure or polymerize, essentially into one large sheet of crosslinked molecules. Or maybe it's one very large molecule, but they will not become functionally useful coatings until they are cured by adding the activator. I think this is one reason you have to mix up the paint ready to spray and then let it induce for a while before you begin to apply it with the gun- the reaction has to begin in the pot before the paint is sprayed onto the surface you are finishing.
I have some dulling going on. How do I know what paint is on? If it is awlgrip I guess i can't buff it out? I used to paint cars and also custom paint jobs, so I know that the finish can't be any better than the prep. I guess if there was a run or problem using imron that can be fixed, but not awlgrip, right? I never have used awlgrip. I also purchased a gallon of BTS which is a protection. They say it is better then the best wax? So not being in the business for quite a while I need to know how to find out if awlgrip or imron or something similar. Thanks
Capt. Chuck
Imron never did need thining to spray. And I have rolled it on small areas of nicks gouges and such, but it takes multiple coats and wetsanding and buffing after to make it look good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatsb
AwlGrip is made with a brushing/rolling converter and thinner. Imron does not have that AFAIK. Interlux Perfection also has a rolling/tipping converter from what I hear but I have not used it. I have heard people say they can roll and tip Imron. I don't know how you could without the right converter and thinner as spray solvents flash off very quickly, but I have never tried it. It's kind of pricey stuff to experiment with.
If you have a section you can tape off, you can AwlGrip just that section using the roll/tip method. If I did it, anyone can. I did put a thread up this summer on this. You cannot buff AwlGrip and you cannot spot it in. The shine is on the surface, not all through like it is in Imron.
Really this depends on the area you need to fix. I got surprisingly good results- I would say it is an acceptable ten-foot job, closer than that you start to see the runs. The gloss is excellent- whatever else you may say ab out AG, it IS shiny....