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Cruisair Replacement question
I have two Cruisair split units on my 36. Both are 30 years old. The marina mechanic tells me the compressor on the little one is shot, keeps popping the breaker, and needs to be replaced. He's mentioned trying to find a replacement which I assume means a used or rebuilt one. He also mentioned replacing it with a new one. He also mentioned R22 which you can't use anymore. My question to you folks are, do replacement compressors exist? Can a new compressor can be used with an old air handler or do I need to replace both pieces? Is there a fix that I'm just not thinking of?
Thank you very much.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
You can replace just the compressor but if the units are 30 year old you may be better off relaxing the whole condenser as the coils and electric components are getting there. If the air handlers is fine and doesn't leak you can keep it.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
R22 is still available and is still manufactured until 2020. It may be that manufacturers are not allowed to produce new complete units with R22, but replacement parts and the actual refrigerant is still available and expensive to discourage use.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dave1985
I have two Cruisair split units on my 36. Both are 30 years old. The marina mechanic tells me the compressor on the little one is shot, keeps popping the breaker, and needs to be replaced. He's mentioned trying to find a replacement which I assume means a used or rebuilt one. He also mentioned replacing it with a new one. He also mentioned R22 which you can't use anymore. My question to you folks are, do replacement compressors exist? Can a new compressor can be used with an old air handler or do I need to replace both pieces? Is there a fix that I'm just not thinking of?
Thank you very much.
Dave, I just replaced two condensing units , purchased from Ocean Breeze in Stuart they build exact specs and footprint of the old cruiseairs with bigger coils i think there better units
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
I have replaced both the compressors on my self contained units, R22. Bought them new in last 5 years from Flagship Marine in Florida New compressors were under $300 for 16,500 btu.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Great information.
Thank you all for the help.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
I found the compressors online and replaced them myself. R22 is expensive but I stocked up before it got out of hand. You can repair a unit and stick with R22 but a manufacturer cannot build a new unit charged with R22. They will sell you just the condensing unit but it will be charged with a replacement refrigerant like R417 at which point you can either go with the new refrigerant or pull it out and stick with R22 if the oils are compatible. I didn't go this routs because I like fixing old stuff, my heat exchanger coils looked good and the new units were a slightly different dimension in a tight fitting custom rack. The condenser heat exchanger coils can fail and leak. When you pull off the cooling water hoses look at the condition of the ends of the nipples to look for any signs of deterioration. I left my old evaporator units in place but one of them did need new blower motors. More than one member here has reported good results with another manufacturer for the replacement units like Ocean Breeze mentioned here.
George
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Suit yourself, but I just converted one of my split systems to a self contained..easy DIY job. Thanks to Sky for the electrical guidance.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Webasto makes some cheap stuff. We replace bunches of it. As to the one piece units over the split systems that lasted for years. Think about it. There's a reason so many designers used split systems.
In areas of high growth we find the coolling lines getting clogged with growth and the pumps people use are usually smaller than may be needed.
My friend just added a 16.5k self contained to his salon. Time will tell when we splash.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boatsb
Webasto makes some cheap stuff. We replace bunches of it. As to the one piece units over the split systems that lasted for years. Think about it. There's a reason so many designers used split systems.
In areas of high growth we find the coolling lines getting clogged with growth and the pumps people use are usually smaller than may be needed.
My friend just added a 16.5k self contained to his salon. Time will tell when we splash.
I'm all in at $1,400...it was cheap, so if I get 5 years out of it, I'm happy.. Replacement self contained units are plug and play, with digital controls and remote. I only went Webasto because it was the smallest footprint for a 12k unit. I'm putting a Marinaire in the salon.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
This is perplexing topic for me. I have 3 cruise air split units in my 1995 48 CPMY. Salon has a Passport II display, another Passport, and another has the original MTC IV. The issue is each one is in a state of failing. The main salon 16K compressor is at the upper amps to start, and there is a slow leak in the evaporator. The other two both have slow leaks in the evaporators. I get away with 3 to 6 months and then need to get them charged again.
The cost to replace having a tech do it seems astronomical. And the self contained units seem like it can be DYI from this point forward, but then you have water lines running through the boat. Is that safe if done proper, and if so what's the maintenance in a high growth area?
My question is to stay with split system, can you buy split units yourself, install them and charge them up? My understanding is you need to evacuate the system - bring down to a negative pressure - then charge the system? Looks like $1000 or so in vacuum, recovery tank, 4 gauge manifold and a charging tank of R-22?
I'm mechanically inclined - just always stayed away from A/C systems. But for the amount of money this is going to cost - I'm willing to spend the time to learn and even take a class :) It's also a PITA to have the system run low on charge and have to wait for that process - I'd rather become self reliant at least in charging.
Thanks for all the info and perspective as usual.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
To each their own when it comes to this subject. If you spend the money on a quality replacement and get another 25 years will it make sense? Some say no. I see 30 year old split systems being replaced with 5 year self contained all the time. Its all in how you value the boat.
DIY all too often is do it wrong. I hire people to do work on my boat when it makes sense and I'm in the business.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
The way most split systems work is that the condensing unit comes charged with refrigerant and oil sufficient for a stated length of copper tubing to and from the evaporator. The connections are usually flared. You connect the flare fittings to the condensor, evacuate the lines to the evaporator, release the refrigerant into the system and then hook up a set of gauges and tweak the charge if needed.
If you want to get qualified to do AC work then you take a proctered 608 EPA test to get your cert card, buy a set of equipment (a substantial investment), learn how to braze, and then start reading and/or take some classes at a tech school. You can't buy refrigerant without the card except small 134a cans at the parts store and you need the cert and equipment to be "legal". It's not rocket science but like all trades it takes a while to get good at it. PV=nrT, the ideal gas law. Volume the same, pressure up and it gets hot. Pressure down, volume up and it gets cold. Rinse and repeat. Easy peasy
George
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boatsb
To each their own when it comes to this subject. If you spend the money on a quality replacement and get another 25 years will it make sense? Some say no. I see 30 year old split systems being replaced with 5 year self contained all the time. Its all in how you value the boat.
DIY all too often is do it wrong. I hire people to do work on my boat when it makes sense and I'm in the business.
Scott. I agree with your point. Last year or so I came to HOF about putting the wedge style scoops on the engine and AC and it was 10 to 0 on going forward with it. On these self contained A/C units I see it's not a slam dunk. I will likely stick with the split systems.
If I try to replace one myself is a matter of if it's in the range of possible. My A/C guy is top and if I did this - he probably wouldn't service it - I wouldn't blame him - so there's that.
I was both proud and disgusted with myself replacing a leaking SW vacuum pump. But I couldn't find anyone who would do the job. "I don't do that" was the response. I know why...forgetaboutit.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reefgeorge
The way most split systems work is that the condensing unit comes charged with refrigerant and oil sufficient for a stated length of copper tubing to and from the evaporator. The connections are usually flared. You connect the flare fittings to the condensor, evacuate the lines to the evaporator, release the refrigerant into the system and then hook up a set of gauges and tweak the charge if needed.
If you want to get qualified to do AC work then you take a proctered 608 EPA test to get your cert card, buy a set of equipment (a substantial investment), learn how to braze, and then start reading and/or take some classes at a tech school. You can't buy refrigerant without the card except small 134a cans at the parts store and you need the cert and equipment to be "legal". It's not rocket science but like all trades it takes a while to get good at it. PV=nrT, the ideal gas law. Volume the same, pressure up and it gets hot. Pressure down, volume up and it gets cold. Rinse and repeat. Easy peasy
George
Great info thanks. I wasn't even thinking about the "epa" legal angle. If I can't get the refrigerant then it's probably a moot point to DYI.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
I don't like self contained ACs but I can see the frustration with the costs and maintenance of the mini splits. Unfortunately, the new ones do not last 25 years... that was true for the old blue Cruisairs, not the new stuff.
The 2003 70 footer I used to run had 6 condensors and over the 9 years I ran the boat all but 2 had to get new compressors, two of them twice. On my own 53 the average life span of the compressors (late 90s Ocean Breeze) were about 6 years
Not much better than the disposable self contained and The cost of a compressor is about the same as a new self contained. But you don't get the noise of the compressors in the living quarters.
As I ve mentioned before, if a entire system is on the brink it is not worth redoing splits. Either you go with self contained (about $10k on a 53) or chillers which are about twice the costs (if DIY). On most boats, running the water lines isn't too hard as distances from the ERs are pretty short and there is a lot more room than it seems. It s not much worst than running water lines anyway
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Getting a 608 license is an easy 50 question Government test. Don't let that be a barrier to you. Took an afternoon of studying. I looked at replacing the existing air handler and compressor, controls, etc, but without labor, around 5k, with labor? New self contained units are incredibly small and quiet. I guess that's why most new boats use them. The use the same water lines as your existing systems. I'm not stuck on one brand vs another, but size matters. I replaced a 10k Cruisair R22 split system with a 12k Webasto Self contained system...for 1/4 the cost of updating with a new Cruisair system. After spending the weekend onboard, it was a good choice...but like I said, each to his own.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
When my 40+ year old Cruiseairs developed leaks I installed a Webasto 9K in the master beds closet about 5yrs ago. I installed a 16K in the salon where the original air handler resided. Very happy with this setup as a full time live aboard in SW Florida. It was a bonus all the space freed up in the ER !
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
I'm running self contained in my 53SF freed up a lot of space.
Now cant wait for someone to marinize the air cool mini splits.
Bob
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And we're done. Control fit in the old Honeywell cut out. The black blanking plate was where the blower fan control was. Yep, it's sideways..but it has a remote control..which is nice.
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We decided to update the entire lower level with new Dometic units and pro installer this week. We had one big condenser driving 4 air handlers but only one thermostat for all staterooms (guarantee that someone was uncomfortable at all times). We are replacing with 3 smaller condensers and all new air handlers. We’ll be able to control each of the main 3 SR’s independently, and the V-berth is slaved to the Fwd SR, so it is basically a “suite” of sorts. Here is some of the new gear on the truck, and a “before” and a “during” pic.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
My ac units are now about 30 years old. one in the crew quarters is leaking and the board is shot. my ac guy suggests changing. I just don't have time to do it myself. my ac guy wants 1600 in labor. 200 materials and 3600 for the new condenser, evap, control. All new wiring. can anyone say if the labor to replace everything seems excessive? i think the cost of the unit seems in the ball park.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Labor is what it is. I don't know how much time it will take but if you trust him do it. If you don't find a other guy.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Labor seems a little high but it depends on access. The condenser should be easy to pull out in the ER. The air handlers maybe harder depending on how much cabinetry needs to come out. I d try to open it all up myself somthe unit is right there. I don't see 16 + hours of labor
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
Labor seems a little high but it depends on access. The condenser should be easy to pull out in the ER. The air handlers maybe harder depending on how much cabinetry needs to come out. I d try to open it all up myself somthe unit is right there. I don't see 16 + hours of labor
I'm sure you don't see it because you have no knowledge of the scope of the project. Have you seen it? Have you assessed the work?
Is the tech going to clean the lines and change to a new refrigerant? Replace the lines? What else is needed?
You comment on things that you have no real knowledge of and that's not helping anyone but your ego.
By the way somewhere, some how someone is going to pay a service provider fairly whether you like it or not.
I cant keep up with the amount of work I seem to be getting lately and I don't shoot low ball to get jobs numbers and try to make it up on changes. I have a simple rate schedule and I always estimate a bit higher ( an hour or two ) because something challenging always presents itself. I know an AC guy in the Daytona area that's very doing the same and we cross paths sometimes laugh about the people pushing for lower cost labor and then complaining about what they get.
Lets take a bit of time to look at costs vs your wishes.
Commercial Vehicle insurance $$$$$
Liability insurance $$$$$
Workers Comp insurance $$$$$
Fuel $$
Inventory of parts $$$
Ordering, receiving and inventory control $$
Labor ( if you have an employee doing the work ) $$$$$
Follow up and warranty $$
Collections $$$
Marina fees ( In Cape Canaveral they average $30 - 50 a day each yard)
What the uninformed customer sees.
A guy in a truck or van $$
brings the gear that magically got in there. FREE
Has everything he needs for the jog in there FREE
Sneaks in the yard to save you $50. FREE
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Damn Scott !! Your always such a DH when someone asks a question. Jumped right on the guys back as you always do.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
If your cephalorectal disease is flaring get some ointment.
How can you determine if a quote is fair if you dont know the scope of it? Unless you and Karnak have a deal going.
Theres a constant bashing of service providers here based on the "experiance" of some do it wrong your selfers who always know better.
I install professional broadcast electronics for a living. I install marine electronics for a living and I do it professionally where quality and knowledge is concerned.
I don't expect the doctor I visit to give me a break because the exam is routine and I don't expect the butcher to give me a break either. All the cheapskate boaters ( not the ones like WaltP and BobK who admit it) try to bring down the cost of their boating at others expense. If you cant afford it find a cheaper hobby. If you dont like paying for labor dont hire it out.
The poster of the question asked if the prices looked reasonable and they did . I work in an area with many good service providers and we all hold our prices and make sure we do things right. You get what you pay for.
My original post stated if you trust they guy its probably right. I didn't second guess the estimate or whats in the job. Some other person did that.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Maybe it’s the personal insults that get in the way.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Its hard to reply to specific posts or people without being personal.
Sorry if I seem harsh but to discuss the scope of a project you've not seen and even state your not sure whats involved then state the price is high is just plain .....
Forget it Ill get banned for stating the truth in a way that may piss someone off.
Shayne,
Im in the Port Canaveral area. If you want, PM me and we can talk. I don't second guess or undercut professionals that did the up front work but I may be able to get you a second opinion if your in the area.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Talk about ego... geez.
Without getting into the gutter...
Business costs like insurance, worksmen comp, fuel etc are already accounted for in the labor rate. Same with travel as most techs charge a travel fee. So your rant about these costs is irrelevant. Nobody is disputing the average $90 to $100 labor rate.
In 20 or 30 years I have had a number of air handlers and condensors replaced on my boats and boats I run. Shayne was quoted about 16 hours of labor to replace the system, at the typical $90 to $100 rate that's 16 hours. I have never seen a professional air con tech require more than 2 hours to pull a condensor or an evaporator. So 4 hours for both, clear and recharge, another hour for the new control, travel etc it's a 6 to 8 hour job.
Sorry to say but labor padding is a common thing in he marine business. I was recently quoted 8 hours to replace the high pressure pump on a watermaker. Guy did the job in 3... what should have I paid over twice the labor? It s not being cheap, it s paying for what you receive.
That said I agree about not being able to asses a job sight unseen... this is why I started my post saying "unless access is difficult"
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
As far as labor goes, it took me 3 days to swap out an existing split system unit in a stateroom for a self contained unit. If the job is simply swapping old components for new, it's probably a quicker job. But if you can't DIY, I don't think you'll find anybody significantly less than your quote. Workmans Comp, Liability Insurance, Taxes, and other factors drive the labor rate up. Don't know the size of the unit your talking about, but $3,600 is pretty steep for all but a big unit. But, if you can't DIY, pay the man!
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
Talk about ego... geez.
Without getting into the gutter...
Business costs like insurance, worksmen comp, fuel etc are already accounted for in the labor rate. Same with travel as most techs charge a travel fee. So your rant about these costs is irrelevant. Nobody is disputing the average $90 to $100 labor rate.
In 20 or 30 years I have had a number of air handlers and condensors replaced on my boats and boats I run. Shayne was quoted about 16 hours of labor to replace the system, at the typical $90 to $100 rate that's 16 hours. I have never seen a professional air con tech require more than 2 hours to pull a condensor or an evaporator. So 4 hours for both, clear and recharge, another hour for the new control, travel etc it's a 6 to 8 hour job.
Sorry to say but labor padding is a common thing in he marine business. I was recently quoted 8 hours to replace the high pressure pump on a watermaker. Guy did the job in 3... what should have I paid over twice the labor? It s not being cheap, it s paying for what you receive.
That said I agree about not being able to asses a job sight unseen... this is why I started my post saying "unless access is difficult"
Quoted and charged are different.
If I quote 16 and do it in 12 I charge for 12.
If I quote 16 and do it in 20 because there's issues I charge 20.
I don't quote sight unseen unless Ive done the same job before and I still include caveats.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
I think something is missing from the conversation.
Doing professional service work myself, I think that the client's expectations must by considered.
When I perform a DYI project my expectations are tempered by my experience, the difficulty I experience, my ignorance of what a good job looks like, and my tolerance for rework as mistakes are remedied during the service life of the repair. In general I am much more forgiving of myself than a hired pro.
When I am hired as a professional, the client doesn't give a rip about all that stuff. They expect and deserve the project be completed in a timely and professional manner, utilizing the proper parts, tools, and expertise to effect a repair or replacement that will last the service life of the equipment or materials. In fact, we demand they warrant the work and don't break other stuff in the execution.
Two completely different levels of expectation and therefore when pitting DIY to Professional you are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison.
I think the more relevant question is do you belief the professional can meet the standards of a pro job. If you think he is gouging, get more bids to establish the market. If you think he is unqualified, you are foolish to consider his services.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
There's really only one way to know the market in your area, on your job. Get references for trusted professionals and then get three quotes with details on what is and not included, then you can determine whats fair where you live and on your job. I think everybody knows the risks of taking low ball bids in either shoddy work or upcharges as the job goes forward but that why you get references first. Conversely, even with quality work there can be such a thing as paying too much, thats why you get three bids.
There is obviously some deep rooted feelings here about people paying fair prices for quality work or not appreciating what it takes to be trained and equipped to be a quality professional but in the end, the market sets the prices and decides when the work is good enough to use again. My family was in the trades for 50 years, including me so I understand well these forces. We never advertised, got all our work by word of mouth and had work lined up virtually straight through in all those decades. Boom years were easier and recession years were harder but we always had work and a good reputation. In the long run the market decides if it wants to keep paying prices at a certain level given the quality of the outcome. These market forces really get balanced during economic downturns when quality and fair get rewarded. There are always customers who don't appreciate or want to pay for quality and there are service providers that are well suited for them. Getting mad because certain people don't get what it takes to deliver quality doesn't put food on the table. Courteous, professional work that meets expectations at a fair price keeps you working for 40 years and being appreciated.
Its the insults that turn threads like this into something ugly and detract from why we are here. Opinions are supposed to be shared here that's what we do in the service of others and it's OK to disagree but personal references to someones rectum (and it's presumed condition) are not necessary to get even a passionate point across. It only detracts from people having any appreciation for your point of view. Also, this is in large part a DIY help forum so by definition many of these discussions do not give work to professionals, it's the point of much of this forum.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reefgeorge
There's really only one way to know the market in your area, on your job. Get references for trusted professionals and then get three quotes with details on what is and not included, then you can determine whats fair where you live and on your job. I think everybody knows the risks of taking low ball bids in either shoddy work or upcharges as the job goes forward but that why you get references first. Conversely, even with quality work there can be such a thing as paying too much, thats why you get three bids.
There is obviously some deep rooted feelings here about people paying fair prices for quality work or not appreciating what it takes to be trained and equipped to be a quality professional but in the end, the market sets the prices and decides when the work is good enough to use again. My family was in the trades for 50 years, including me so I understand well these forces. We never advertised, got all our work by word of mouth and had work lined up virtually straight through in all those decades. Boom years were easier and recession years were harder but we always had work and a good reputation. In the long run the market decides if it wants to keep paying prices at a certain level given the quality of the outcome. These market forces really get balanced during economic downturns when quality and fair get rewarded. There are always customers who don't appreciate or want to pay for quality and there are service providers that are well suited for them. Getting mad because certain people don't get what it takes to deliver quality doesn't put food on the table. Courteous, professional work that meets expectations at a fair price keeps you working for 40 years and being appreciated.
Its the insults that turn threads like this into something ugly and detract from why we are here. Opinions are supposed to be shared here that's what we do in the service of others and it's OK to disagree but personal references to someones rectum (and it's presumed condition) are not necessary to get even a passionate point across. It only detracts from people having any appreciation for your point of view. Also, this is in large part a DIY help forum so by definition many of these discussions do not give work to professionals, it's the point of much of this forum.
George
Very well said sir
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Well, first off I'm sorry to see tempers flair over my question and I do appreciate the insight form more experienced boaters. I'm new to the forum and to my 1989 Hatteras which i love but I have learned that one cant just pay someone to fix everything on a 30 year old boat without asking around to see if the quote is reasonable, especially with 7 ac units which are all original. I think this is the smallest one at 5000 btu. I expect to pay for qualified experts, the cost just seemed a bit high to me.
Attachment 26150
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Add in the removal of the cabinet, the shelves, replacing power when necessary ( old hats its often necessary) clean and test the copper lines, hook up the system and pull a vacuum for a few hours, let the system sit to see if it holds vacuum, charge properly and run the heat and super heat numbers. Determine all cycles are functional and spend a half hour with the customer if its a new style control. All in how many hours?
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boatsb
Add in the removal of the cabinet, the shelves, replacing power when necessary ( old hats its often necessary) clean and test the copper lines, hook up the system and pull a vacuum for a few hours, let the system sit to see if it holds vacuum, charge properly and run the heat and super heat numbers. Determine all cycles are functional and spend a half hour with the customer if its a new style control. All in how many hours?
All of this and more. The original post seemed low to me, but my perspective is limited to my experience. I am 3/4 of the way through what has turned out to be a much bigger AC job than I could have imagined. I am tryin to “help” where I can with cabinets, gophering, trash and debris removal, etc. the original quote to replace the below deck AC (3 new condensers, 4 new blowers) was $22K. After too many surprises to list, including needing to replace wiring, copper lines, old breaker boxes, changing plan on shelf fabrication, etc etc etc we will be approaching $30K. Ouch. About $20K hardware, parts, etc and the rest labor. But, I can see a beautiful outcome that should perform very well for years to come. Most importantly for me, our guests should be much more comfortable.
So, this is as far from DIY as you can get. I am 100% that it can be done much much cheaper, but I don’t have those skills, and I didn’t go with the lowest bidder. I am paying the hourly rate, and the time is the time. Here is the work still in progress...
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Ask you guys too long they evacuate lines for. I bet if they do it right it's a few hours (to get below 5000 microns on the tester) and get all the liquid and vapor out.
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Re: Cruisair Replacement question
Below 500 microns. The time to evacuate is relative to the amount of moisture in the system and the quality of vacuum pump. A quality professional should have a high volume two stage pump. On a new system with a sealed compressor and evaporator that gets hooked up to flare fittings, the time to 500 microns can be pretty fast, well under an hour. A blown compressor with a fully contaminated system keeping the same evaporator can take hours with triple nitrogen sweeps.
George