-
Hatteras Resale Prices
What is the general feeling about the value of boats in this Trump environment? My business has seen an uptick in folks willing to part with money on larger projects. For those of you on the front line, what are you seeing in your businesses?
I know it can all vanish in a second as the improved economy is based upon expectations of a tax cut, reduced immigration, etc. etc. But I would think just as the values took a major hit in '08 when the financial melt down took root, their would be a positive effect as the economy finally recovers. For those of us who lived through Regan, 5% real growth is a wonderful thing.
Here's something else I don't get, whey do owners settle for only those prospects with cash. I understand that normal lenders will limit the age due to underwriting restrictions, but in other markets folks get creative. As most of us own the asset outright, why not take back paper in order to accommodate a higher ask? Most small businesses are sold with a blend of cash and owner financing, and the risk is just as high that the new owner will trash it.
For those that really need the cash right now, one could always market the paper on a secondary market. Yes you would have to discount the note, but anything above what you would have gotten for cash alone deal means your dollars ahead.
I am most interested in what Nightingale will close at, not that my boat is as nice, it isn't. But comps are comps and a rising tide lifts all boats. I'm not selling, regardless of what Freeebird says I should do ;), so the matter is merely curiosity.
What am I not understanding?
mark
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chasemmc
What am I not understanding?
mark
DEPRECIATION.
If it flies, floats or f&#%@, lease it.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Well I guess no one has sold a house and taken back a second. And no one has rented a property due to fear of the property being damaged. what do u think the value of homes would be if mortgages were not available? The asset can be protected by requiring the insurance proceeds to first go the lien holder.Surprised at the response
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Boats are very easy to make disappear.
Houses and buildings a but harder to do that.
Yes you can insure it but is it worth the time and effort.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
You can't sink a house in 50 ft of water. Although renters can cost you an arm and a leg if they ruin your investment. Insurance only covers so much. Think about the turmoil.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chasemmc
Well I guess no one has sold a house and taken back a second. And no one has rented a property due to fear of the property being damaged. what do u think the value of homes would be if mortgages were not available? The asset can be protected by requiring the insurance proceeds to first go the lien holder.Surprised at the response
Would you take a second mortgage behind the bank?
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
i keep hearing how hot the boating market is. I've seen a fair amount of boats sell quickly and for pretty strong numbers in the past couple of months. Unfortunately this seems to be primarily for newer boats roughly 10 years old or newer. Detroit effective. Detroit power continues to be less in demand.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
boats are old. have 2stroke loud engine. not worth much.
try 300-400k for a 50c with cats these days.
Now, if you want to talk about center consoles, we can talk about APPRECIATION! People asking insane prices for used CC...and the new big ones (especially cats) are claimed to sell for more than than new because the wait list is so long. Do I believe this BS? Well, this joke won't last forever.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
If I'm financing it I'm keeping it until it's paid in full
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
krush
boats are old. have 2stroke loud engine. not worth much.
try 300-400k for a 50c with cats these days.
Now, if you want to talk about center consoles, we can talk about APPRECIATION! People asking insane prices for used CC...and the new big ones (especially cats) are claimed to sell for more than than new because the wait list is so long. Do I believe this BS? Well, this joke won't last forever.
a friend is looking for a 50C with either 3406 or C18s. The nice ones have been in the 500K to 600K range
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Maybe it's not a lack of creative financing or a seller's unwillingness to take risks. Maybe it's screaming at you on this forum. Old motors, old wiring, old decor, old air, old everything. Maybe it's the amount of money it takes to maintain old, let alone update. Isn't that the real cost of a boat? So you fix it up nice; there are still dozens of other areas waiting to grab a new owner's attention and wallet. That's what I meant when I said depreciation. At least with a new or much newer boat the depreciation is more straight line. Depreciation can get exponential in a 30 year old boat.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
"Depreciation can get exponential in a 30 year old boat."
That's what's driving our new boat search.My original plan was to sell ours, (1990 56' Ocean CPMY) then go looking for a Hatteras. But once the Ocean sold, and I started reflecting a bit, I've changed my mind. I'm going for newer, faster, smaller. With the relatively short time the actuaries tell me I have left on this planet, I want to spend it on the water, not under a pile of wrenches in the bilge. Obviously, boating is a "to each his own" proposition, but for me, and in fact, just like me, "older" means "more problems". I'm going newer and hoping for the best.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
The sweet spot when it comes to maintenance is with boats that are 3 to 8 years old. But three years old, the bugs have been worked out and depreciation gets better. Over 10 years issues start creeping up at a far more rapid pace. At 10 to 15 years, hours start reaching levels where major rebuild become a possibility. Corrosion takes its tall as well as UV on paint or gelcoat. Problem is obviously that a 5 year old 60 footer is still a worth a lot of money.
When boats like ours reach the 20 year old mark, if properly maintained depreciation becomes much less of a factor. Sure they still depreciate but a lot less than a 10 year old boat. Other factors such as th economy and market conditions have a much bigger impact than a few extra years of age
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
saltshaker
a friend is looking for a 50C with either 3406 or C18s. The nice ones have been in the 500K to 600K range
Ok, 400-600k for a 2000 or newer 50c Hatteras. And people are wondering why their 1980 motoryacht isn't worth 300k?
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Big problem with boats in that 10 year old or less time frame was the economy. With the last recession not as many boats were being built so the inventory of those boats is small and people know it and are pricing them accordingly. John
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
z28jimi
"Depreciation can get exponential in a 30 year old boat." Obviously, boating is a "to each his own" proposition, but for me, and in fact, just like me, "older" means "more problems". I'm going newer and hoping for the best.
Exactly. I'm retired. I spend Mon-Wed working at the farm or helping a buddy in the grading business. By noon on Thursday through Sunday I'm OTB and starting on the project of the week. It's what I want to do. Finding someone like me for your old boat increases your asset value. Purchaser paying someone to do it for them decreases the value of asset at time of sale.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Exactly. Look how fast MikeP's boat sold. And he did exactly that- all owner maintained by a terrific technician who knew exactly what he was doing. On that boat, the offer was nearly simultaneous with the listing going up.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
krush
Ok, 400-600k for a 2000 or newer 50c Hatteras. And people are wondering why their 1980 motoryacht isn't worth 300k?
Exactly. You look at what you can buy for a given dollar amount. A friend of mine was looking at a 2005 51 Riviera. Very well kept and equipped. When I told him it was only worth 350-400 he thought I was nuts. Then I showed him some 50 Hatt listings and he understood why.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Can we please avoid political commentary here? What if the leadership has nothing to do with the economy? It was already growing and accelerated this summer because people HAVE jobs. The free market dictates the economy. Get a life.
I've just been lucky enough to help a friend hone in on the right boat for him, and z28jimi makes a valid point. My buddy started out seeking a truly pristine updated Hatteras. We couldn't find one. ANYWHERE. He ended up with a newer modern style boat. And it was a tough search to find a really clean one of those!
MOST of the boats We looked at were either awful, or teetering on awful because so few people properly care for them. Nor prepare them for sale. WHY IS THAT? Price is dictated by condition. Period. The price of the cleanest boats is way up. The dirty ones...WAY DOWN!
Example...maybe one or two 53 Hatteras's out there are worth $300,000. The remaining 347 are worth less. Some worth $0. It's not about the price. It's about the condition. A professional restoration will run about $750,000. We've reached a dangerous tipping point. It's more cost effective to buy the newest nicest boat you can find for under $500,000. Since there aren't any 2000 model 53 Hatteras's out there...where do you turn?
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
I can not agree with you more about the condition of used boats. I see a lot of them when I do surveys. I tell brokers all the time that if they could get there clients to spend a couple of thousand to spruce up there boats before listing them they would probably get at least $10,000 more for them. And tes the few really nice boats always get top dollar. There are plenty of buyers out there that will pay a lot for turn key boats. John
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
http://www.nextavenue.org/nobody-wants-parents-stuff/
Or their old Hatteras
Any things value is determined by supply and demand. There's an attitude shift in the lifestyles of the upcoming generation that has the buying power to provide the demand. They just don't want the aggravation of owning things. And what we perceive as a beautiful and classic to them and their friends is interesting but old and dated.
My mother has "priceless" antiques, jewelry,Hummels lol. All were praised for big bucks at one time nearly worthless now.
Like Ophra said "when all you old people die" we can bury your old junk and ideas along with you.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scarlett
I can not agree with you more about the condition of used boats. I see a lot of them when I do surveys. I tell brokers all the time that if they could get there clients to spend a couple of thousand to spruce up there boats before listing them they would probably get at least $10,000 more for them. And tes the few really nice boats always get top dollar. There are plenty of buyers out there that will pay a lot for turn key boats. John
Yes, and a good broker will help a client spruce up a boat, as you mentioned. After all, if it doesn't sell, no one makes anything.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsmith
http://www.nextavenue.org/nobody-wants-parents-stuff/
Or their old Hatteras
Any things value is determined by supply and demand. There's an attitude shift in the lifestyles of the upcoming generation that has the buying power to provide the demand. They just don't want the aggravation of owning things. And what we perceive as a beautiful and classic to them and their friends is interesting but old and dated.
My mother has "priceless" antiques, jewelry,Hummels lol. All were praised for big bucks at one time nearly worthless now.
Like Ophra said "when all you old people die" we can bury your old junk and ideas along with you.
This was our experience when my father and his wife both passed within 5 months, I was left to clear their house in Montecito, CA and I had a difficult time finding a place for all the antiques, carpets, silver, china and all the rest. I was stunned to find that Goodwill wanted no part of most of it and even after an ad in Craigslist giving it away, we still had to rent a full sized dumpster. It has been 7 years and now I am downsizing and having the same trouble: nobody in the family wants our household furnishings and it has next to no value on the open market. And to top it off, the things we want to hold on to, like watches, art, jewelry, fine wine, collectible cars and motorcycles, etc. are the most expensive and difficult to store longtime.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
A friend once told me I have an 80 yard life. When I asked what that meant he said "After you die, that's the size of the dumpsters your kids are going to need to throw out all of the things you thought we're important."
I think I'm up to about 120 yards now. :(
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
This year we have surveyed two "clean well maintained by knowledgeable owner with a open check book boats" as described by the brokers. Both failed surveys badly for lack of maintenance but owners were not willing to discount cost. Both boats were visibly ok but badly maintained with a lot of deferred mechanical maintenance. Most brokers play dumb when you start discussing mechanical status of engines, gens, a/c's, and etc. Thin inventory with high prices. Remember this happening after the 10% luxury tax was cancelled and inventory was low.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
For 300k you can get a newer (2000 and up) motoryacht with modern amenities and power.
It's not a hatteras. it's not Detroit 2 stroke and it's not 30 plus years old.
It's hard to justify money for older vessels with more and more of these types of boats available.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
A 1980's hatteras motoryacht looks old. It's outdated styling to most people. However, the convertibles kind of stay classic. When I say my boat is 50 years old, people think I'm lying!
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
krush
A 1980's hatteras motoryacht looks old. It's outdated styling to most people. However, the convertibles kind of stay classic. When I say my boat is 50 years old, people think I'm lying!
You are. Do the math.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boatsb
You are. Do the math.
I'm sure it was built in 1967. Rounding up 1 year is not going to break the bank.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Close enough for government work?
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Another consideration, even if you can get "insurance" you really do not have "boat" insurance. With the ever increasing depreciation schedule, with few parts exceptions, you pay 80 to 90 percent of the replacement parts costs, and you are buying parts for a boat that today costs 10X what you paid for yours.
You will also be buying many more of those 10X costs parts for routine maintenance than the owner of a similar 5 year old boat.
Which leads to many owners who could afford to buy a 30 to 50 year old Hatteras, with far fewer who can afford or are willing to maintain one.
Which leads to fewer and fewer of us hobbyist that take pride in owning/maintaining/improving/using a classic item in maritime history, when mid size fiberglass boats were invented and built with pride for the upper middle class. You just have to wonder what the boat bone yard will look like in 10 or 20 years.
And since boats, at least Hatteras boats are not rotting away, the supply remains relatively constant, the demand is dropping, and prices are doing what they always do in this situation.
Pete
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boatsb
For 300k you can get a newer (2000 and up) motoryacht with modern amenities and power.
It's not a hatteras. it's not Detroit 2 stroke and it's not 30 plus years old.
.
What do you get for 300k and around 2000? 50ish sea ray, carver (yuck), az-mutt (double yuck, I ll take DDs over Italian electrical)
None of which will have the space and comfort of a 53MY or 58Yf. For $300k you can start with a tired 53/58, repower, redo the AC with modern chillers, rewire and have a boat that will be far more practical and reliable than any of the above.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pete
Another consideration, even if you can get "insurance" you really do not have "boat" insurance. With the ever increasing depreciation schedule, with few parts exceptions, you pay 80 to 90 percent of the replacement parts costs, and you are buying parts for a boat that today costs 10X what you paid for yours.
You will also be buying many more of those 10X costs parts for routine maintenance than the owner of a similar 5 year old boat.
Pete
Not sure what you mean by that? If anything parts for our boats are cheaper than some of the proprietary parts you need on new boats. Spent a week in the Exumas cruising with 6 year old Tiara. All the electrics (nav lights, pumps, etc) were controlled by a touch screen a a maze of relays and wires down below. It worked but imagine parts costs ? Ever priced a part for a MAN?
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pascal
Not sure what you mean by that? If anything parts for our boats are cheaper than some of the proprietary parts you need on new boats. Spent a week in the Exumas cruising with 6 year old Tiara. All the electrics (nav lights, pumps, etc) were controlled by a touch screen a a maze of relays and wires down below. It worked but imagine parts costs ? Ever priced a part for a MAN?
There are two separate thoughts on the subject of older boat ownership costs. So, let me treat them separately and try to better explain my thinking. In both cases I will assume that a buyer is in search of a boat and is willing to spend $300K. His choices are a less than 5 year old boat or a classic 30 years old Hatteras.
First, if the buyer chooses 5 years or less his insurance will most likely cover both parts and labor in full, less deductible, in the event of a loss. This full coverage continues until the boat is 21 years old, and then depreciates to 20% parts costs coverage by year 28, if not earlier. At year 28 and beyond the coverage for the older boat is 100% labor and 20% parts. Add to that the costs differential of the parts on a 5 year old boat costing $300K in 2017 versus a 30 year old hatteras costing 300K in 2017. On a haul, prop, shaft, strut or two, my estimate is at least 10 to 1. Keep in mind the Hatteras parts are 80% on you versus the insurance company with the newer boat. Thus my point that you can not buy "boat" insurance on my 40 year old Hatteras, unless someone considers 20% parts coverage boat damage insurance.
Second, the maintenance parts differential between a $300K 5 year or newer boat today versus 30 year old Hatteras. Boat needs new bimini and total canvas replacement. My estimate 10 to 1 costs. Boat needs new floor carpet or other flooring. 10 to 1. Boat needs detailing in and out. 10 to 1. Boat needs new bottom paint. Probably 5 to 1. Then consider all the things that are more likely to arise in a 30 year old versus 5 year old boat. Window frame replacement, new paint job, HVAC failures with five or six old units versus one maybe two newer units. Then throw in older boat needs for electronics updates.
So, bottom line, spending $300K can buy you a lot to take care of that is more likely to need care, of a smaller boat with likely a lot less ongoing expense.
That is why I believe the old Hatteras buyer market is becoming more and more a hobbyist market made up of those that just can not resist owning the boat that they have coveted for a long time, and willing and able to take care of it personally.
I would not trade mine for anything else. I will confess that I would really like the main engines to be as oil tight as the Westerbeke four cylinder generator engine. It has had the same oil diaper under it for 18 years and remains spotless.
Pete
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
You re comparing apples and oranges. What can you get under 5 year old for 300k? Maybe a 36' Carver mariner, 34 sundancer or a 35' centerconsole! Can't compare that to a 30 year old 53/56/58
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
A 5 year old smaller boat with lower maintenance requirements is appealing to many peoe today.
Not everyone wants, needs or deserves a classic hatt.
Look at how many old hatts are being butchered as liveaboards with poor craftsmanship and cheap parts that they think look good. The half ass refurb shoukd be illegal.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
True but you can't compare a recent 35 footer overnighter camper to a three stateroom, flybridge, cruise ready 50 something MY
A 5 year old 50 something is going to be between 750 and 1M
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Your forgetting the $300k old boat is cash while a newer boat could be financed allowing someone with the means to buy the newer 50 something.
I'm not giving up my 50 plus year old hatt but uyeres today are not like many of us. They have more disposable income and less time to work on old boats instead of using them.
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
Yes you can compare the two choices, it is what $300K will buy you today. The question for the buyer is which does he want to own given the disparity in ongoing cost and insurability, not to mention the ability to get financing.
Many are choosing the lesser spacer for the lesser ongoing costs, better insurance, availability of financing, etc. Plus the classic look that I so appreciate, is not necessarily what the generation behind me appreciates.
Demand goes down and so do prices.
Pete
-
Re: Hatteras Resale Prices
I think there's nothing that feels better than a boat or a house that's paid for. And nothing feels worse than sending in a payment on something that doesn't run.
That said, not everyone has the appetite for owner maintenance that we do. I love working on my boat; to me it's occupational therapy or whatever you want to call it. I think a lot of people here feel the same way.
I think the low opinion many of us have of modern boats is to some extent justified. I understand that these boats get a lot of people into boating at relatively low expense, but many of these boats are cheaply built with hardware and fixtures that are rather poor quality. I'd rather have something older but from a better brand. Hatteras isn't the only quality brand out there. I just can't think of any others right now.