Vacuflush Troubles- Again

[JLR]

On my 43 Open, I have a single vacuflush head that has cycled too frequently since I have owned it. So far, I have had replaced some hosing, the duck bills, and at least two pressure switches. Latest cycling symptom--it cycled and shut off every 5 minutes until it finally cycled and refused to shut off--all without the head being used. I am losing no water from the bowl. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. I am getting to the point where I am going to have the entire system replaced, just to get it work properly. Is it possible that the plastic vaccuum tank may have a leak. If so, why does the darn pump cycle and shut off, and then finally cycle and not shut off--all without the head being disturbed?

[Genesis]

You got a vacuum leak somewhere. They can be lots of fun to find....

[JLR]

Karl - thanks. What I can't understand is why the switch shuts it down one minute and then it continues to cycle endlessly the next minute. If it's a straight vacuum leak, why wouldn't it be consistent?

[Genesis]

Stick a vacuum gauge on the system.

The switch may be bad.

[JLR]

Will do. If it needs to be replaced, it will be the the third one in one year to go. Seems odd to me.

[Genesis]

That is odd; I never had trouble with the vacuum switch - mine was original.

Then again, you know what they say about everything being cheapened, right?

[JLR]

I spoke with the "head mechanic", a Vacuflush dealer in Ohio and he believes that since the darn thing is holding vacuum, he believes that the problem is necessarily above the level of the vacuum gauge (i.e the base assembly on which the bowl sits). As soon as my local mechanic can get to it, I suspect that I may be replacing the base assembly (reputed to be an easy job). Given the annoyance that this has generated, I mights as well opt for just going over the side. By the way, price of the base assembly is about $250 while the whole toilet assembly is about $700.

[Genesis]

Well there's a leak SOMEWHERE.

I'll tell 'ya what - I had that system on my 45C and other than one pump problem I had ZERO trouble with it.

[JLR]

Sure enough. I hope to have it rectified this week and I will report back. Thanks.

[Pascal]

VF are real simple and very reliable...

if you have a vac leak big enough to make the pump stay on or cycle on and off every few minutes, you WILL HEAR IT. turn off all noise making things, like air cons, etc.. and listen carefully.

a bad switch is possible, that's easy to replace... they cost about $120 I think, inlcuidng the electric switch, membrane, rod, etc... 10' job.

i'd bet on the duck bills... yes you've replaced them but if they are not seated properly they will distord and not hold vacuum.

[SKYCHENEY]

Remember that debate over which head to buy, Vacuflush vs Atlantes? Sorry, couldn't resist :) Hope you get it solved.

[ThirdHatt]

Remember that debate over which head to buy, Vacuflush vs Atlantes? Sorry, couldn't resist :) Hope you get it solved.


Yep, several people asked why I didn't go with Vacuflush instead of Atlantes. I quoted the many people that have had the endless pump running problem, overall cost and complicated install.

I did have an issue last Friday night (late) when the head in the master got clogged/jammed! I couldn't believe it because the wife said she just put a bit of paper in after #1 only. I was tired and went to bed but woke up and tore into it. The breaker kept popping and come to find out, a small phillips screw had found it's way into the head! Those bronze gears are tough, but no match for stainless. I reversed the polarity (as per the manual) for a second and it shot the screw out. WHEW! Glad that worked! It's all good now.

Good luck with the VF!

[JLR]

Thanks all for the help. I stopped on the way to work and bought a replacement base for the bowl to eliminate that as the possible problem. Apparently, the foot pedal rod etc creates this type of a vacuum leak. So, as of now, all I have left to replace is the tank and the pump and I will have a new system--only to likely find out in the end, that it was a lousy hose. I'll report back.

[Keith]

We had a annoying leak in one of our Vacuflush heads also. I finally tracked it down to the plastic pipe that exits at the back or bottom of the toilet. The pipe had a hair line crack that was allowing a vacuum leak. I tried cranking down on the hose clamp around the white sanitation hose to no avail. I tried gooping the fitting with 5200. It didn't stick to the plastic pipe. Finally in desperation I wrapped some self sealling silicone tape around the pipe, hose and hose clamp and have not had a problem in over a year. Of course, the correct repair is to replace the plastic pipe which is a molded part of the toilet mechanism and I just didn't have time to wait for it to arrive. Hopefully my repair will last for a very long time...

Keith
Lady J

[JLR]

I am hoping that I am in a similar situation with a leak by the base of the head itself. When the heads are working properly, should they cycle at all between flushes and if so, how often? I assume that they are similar to a fresh water pump in that regard as far as frequency of cycling although one is on pressure and one is on vacuum.

[Genesis]

JLR - no cycling at all.

Mine held vacuum overnight and often, if I left it "loaded" (I tried not to do this to reduce stress on the duckbills) when locking up, I would come back to the boat a few days later, power up, and the vacuum would still be good.

[captddis]

Mine hold vacuum for a month! turn on and pump does not run. It is better to keep vacuum on the system it keeps the bowl seal in shape and duckbills closed. I had an annoying leak in the guest head, a replacement ball/ shaft kit fixed that. My units are factory 1983. Try that with anything raritan !!!!!!

[SKYCHENEY]

Try that with anything raritan !!!!!!

I couldn't resist piling on when someone had a VF problem. There must me something wrong with me; feeling joyous at someone elses expense. No, not really, I too know what you are going through. We had VF on a 1984 Gulfstar MY and we were working on it from day one until we sold it 10 years later. I like the way they work when all is working properly, but I'd much rather have the Atlantes when it comes time to do repairs. I can pull out the whole toilet and put it on the bench and tear it down. No crawling in tight spaces to get to vac tanks and such. Just my opinion. Glad you've had better luck with them than we did.

[captddis]

I couldn't resist piling on when someone had a VF problem. There must me something wrong with me; feeling joyous at someone elses expense. No, not really, I too know what you are going through. We had VF on a 1984 Gulfstar MY and we were working on it from day one until we sold it 10 years later. I like the way they work when all is working properly, but I'd much rather have the Atlantes when it comes time to do repairs. I can pull out the whole toilet and put it on the bench and tear it down. No crawling in tight spaces to get to vac tanks and such. Just my opinion. Glad you've had better luck with them than we did.





Gulfstar was never known for their installations, blame them if components are inaccessable. The VF is a simple system and as long as the person working on them understands them they should be reliable. I guess after years of fighting POS lectra sans and crown heads I am biased. Not to mention raritans arrogant attitude!

[ThirdHatt]

Gulfstar was never known for their installations, blame them if components are inaccessable. The VF is a simple system and as long as the person working on them understands them they should be reliable. I guess after years of fighting POS lectra sans and crown heads I am biased. Not to mention raritans arrogant attitude!

I think Sky meant that the Vacuflush system is more complicated than the other heads simply because the others are self-contained all-in-one units. No matter what brand of boat you still have to find room to install and access VF pumps and tanks and the lines that go with them. Working perfectly, VF is arguably the best system out there but you can't ignore all the people who have posted their ongoing problems here and on other forums. Just look at the title to this thread! We just haven't seen that with any other heads, much less Atlantes. Atlantes and Crown heads are simple and you don't have to "understand" the system and how it works to make it work like it is supposed to.

I have had Raritan Crown heads on all my boats and never had a clog that required taking it apart or any real problem. You could always call Raritan and get a complete reman Crown unit for $300! Been there, done that. Just swap your bowl, inlet and discharge lines and hook up power. DONE! That was the major reason I bought the Atlantes heads. They seem well built and with all bronze gear/maceraor they should digest just about anything (other than a stainless screw!).

Nobody is talking Lectra-san's here, that is another matter entirely.

[captddis]

So the stupid polyurethane disc that sits against the chopper on the crown deep draft head is never been a problem? around here they last 6 mos tops then the POS will not empty the bowl. 300.00 was a long time ago too. For what a rebuilt crown unit costs you can almost buy a lifetime Galley Maid.

[ThirdHatt]

No, I have not had a preoblem with that disc on any of my heads on any of the four boats that have had crown heads. At least you would know where the problem is, it must be inside the unit because it is self-contained!

It wasn't but a few years ago I bought a complete reman crown directly from Raritan for $300, or maybe it was $325 as a spare but maybe they have gone up like everything else. I guess I have been lucky because we were never "kind" to them including using household toilet paper, cleaned with bleach on occasion, etc.

I have never owned a Galley Maid head but if I did I would surely like it due to their excellent customer support.

[SKYCHENEY]

Sorry to have hijacked this thread. That was not my intent. I truly hope JLR gets his system working. I was merely pointing out that we had another VF problem again showing up on this board. I agree with Byron that the VF is a good system when all is working correctly. They don't use much water either. In fact, I would have ordered them to replace my GM's if they had still made them in 32v. I had never owned a Raritan before, just Groco, VF, and GM. Hopefully I'll still be a fan of the Atlantes in a few more years. If not, you guys with the VF's will be the ones snickering when I start posting about my troubles and my dealings with Raritan. I hope not.

[Genesis]

I thought about putting an Atlantes system in Gigabite when I owned her.

But I recalled my 20+ years on the water, and the head systems I'd both used and had to maintain.

I came to the conclusion that there were only two I was willing to have on my boat - the Delta, and the VacuFlush.

There is one job I hate more than anything else on a boat, and that is working on the heads. Especially when they break while at sea.

And other than someone sticking a mouse in them, those are the only two that I've never had any material sort of trouble with.

[Finalee]

I have the trouble shooting flow chart. Will gladly email it. There is a special vacuum gauge too for the VF. The test sequences with the gauge being used seem to be pretty straight forward and conclusive.

[Beckytek]

The most complicated part of the VF system is a motor that turns a cam that moves a diaphram up an down that creates a vacuum. How much simpler can you get? I've had 2 systems on 2 different boats and have yet to have a problem with either one in ten years. They are the best. Ron

[JLR]

Changed the base of the toilet and that was not the problem but it did disturb a kinked hose that now has an audible leak. Off to change that hose and hopefully that will resolve it.

[Genesis]

DING DING.

Me thinks you found it.

[JLR]

Karl - I sure hope you are right. The mechanic needs to rip the boat apart to get to the darn hose because, for some reason, Hatteras used there support clamps and screwed the clamps around the hose to the stringer on the underside of the floor. Nevertheless, if it fixes the problem, I will be satisfied.

[Genesis]

Oh, you found THAT pleasant surprise!

Yes, I know about that one! You solve it with a circular saw in the cabin(s) involved and you make yourself some hatches, so you can get to the clamps.

Guess how I know this?

[JLR]

I am trying for the disassembly route first to try to avoid cutting holes. I have not had an access problem on the 56MY. I was kind of surprised on the 43.

[Genesis]

There was no way to get to a couple of the clamps on my 45C without cutting hatches (two, in fact.) Flat-out impossible.

[JLR]

Well, after several hours of trying to get the hose from the head to the Y valve in the engine room, my mechanic is going to call Hatteras today. There seems to be a beam athwartship onto which the deck (floor) was glued, which prevents anything from going aft from the head unless it goes through a hole in that beam. Since he can't reach the ties on the hose, he can't pull the hose out and he does not want to use a reduced size hose going through the old one. Karl-- where did you cut the hatches--it seems like it may be the only way to do it? I am not anxious for hatches in my teak and holley floor.

[MikeP]

DId you install the teak/holly yourself?

Our 53 has a bunch of small access hatches in the master stateroom/passageway for access to all sorts of things, from hoses to various LARGE nuts/bolts. They appear to be oem though I can't be totally sure of that. But they had been covered when flooring was installed in the past and I didn't know they were there until I pulled up the old flooring.

I was thinking that perhaps there is some access that you don't know about if the Teak/H was installed by someone else and they covered the panels.

[JLR]

I believe the floor is OEM.

[Genesis]

JLR, I had to cut two hatches - one in the Master SR and another in the head.

There WAS a hatch in the Master SR under the carpet, but that wasn't sufficient - it provided access to the holding tank "T", but not the clamps.

These clamps were in places where you COULD NOT reach them without cutting additional access hatches. No way, no how, and there was a hole in the bulkhead where the hose HAD TO go through - no options. So your only option if you wanted to replace that hose was to cut the hatches and remove the old hose - period.

[SKYCHENEY]

I think that on all of our boats there are some place where there is no access to the hoses. When I put all new sanitation hoses in I had to cut a couple of hatches and I also had to just abandon some old hose. Hatt ran my hose under the platform where my battery boxes are in the gen room. That whole area is completely covered and glassed. There was no way to get to that hose without removing the batt boxes and cutting up the decking underneath it. It just wasn't worth it.

My point is that you may find an alternative route for the hose and just have to leave some of the old stuff in there that you can't get to.

[JLR]

Thanks fellas. My mechanic has stopped billing me for his time on this project because it has become so ridiculous. After 10 years of ownership, I still have not run into this problem on my 56. Is using an undersized hose within the old hose a bad idea as my mechanic seems to think? He says it will clog and I tend to think he might be right. He has already given up on the idea of being able to remove all of the old hose. He says it will simply have to remain there.

[JLR]

The head is fixed. I had to replace the vacuum hose. It cost me more in labor to replace that hose than the entire system cost in parts to replace. Hatteras saw fit to clamp the hose in several places to the underside of my floor with no access.

[JLR]

Once again-- a vaccuflush problem. The pump continues to cycle. Mechanic says he lets it cycle for about five times turning on and off and sure enough, he comes back the next morning and it is running. He says all he has to do is touch the pressure switch and it stops. He has tried to adjust the switch even though I am told that there is no real adjustment for it. Ordinarily, I would just replace the switch but I have already had three switches replaced in two years. Is there any way to grease that shaft that comes out of the switch or any other ideas why it might be hanging?

[JLR]

BMP please

[sgharford]

If he bumps the pressure switch and it stays off (as in its holding vacuum) then maybe you need a new diaphragm in the vacuum pump. It’s seems possible that the seal may be shot if it’s been short cycling dry for a long time in past and maybe cannot pull enough vacuum now to pull pressure switch closed. I remember a factory printed label on cover to pressure switch saying not to mess with it as it was set at factory. Would need vacuum gauge to check and know what switch is set for to diagnose this one if this the cause. If it's pulling enough vacuum and pressure switch not closing then maybe valve is sticking. I don’t remember seeing any grease on mine, so don’t see how shooting it up a liquid lubricant would hurt.

[JLR]

Just to be clear--when he bumps the pressure switch, the pump STOPS cycling.

[Pascal]

possible causes...

1)- someone tried to adjust the spring on the switch and messed it up... you are not supposed to be able to adjust the switch but on some of them you can. it's hard to explain but if you look at it you see how it works. I tihnk you need to hold the shaft and turn the wheel.

2)- remove the swtich assembly from the tank and look at the inside. I replaced one on my boat, the old one had a cracked plastic washer inside the tank, agaisnt the membrane. the new one has a SS washer.

3)- weak vacuum. either the pump motor (unlikely), the bellows (rare), or a duck bill issue that prevents the pump from building enough pressure. check that first, it's easy. when putting DB back in, I usually put some liquid soap on teh edge so that it doens't pinch when tightening the fitting.

[SKYCHENEY]

There is one sure way to keep from having VF issues---Replace it with different head system.

[Pascal]

and deal with the other system issues...

i got 3 on my boat... 4 on the boat i captain... had one on my old boat... the things are near bullet proof. Even with charter guests... and these folks are often not used to marine heads.

no head system is perfect, but VF are no worst than the others

[fissioneng]

Oh, no...not the my toilet's better than yours war again! LOL

Seems like we need to do that every 6 months or so. :D

[Angela]

and deal with the other system issues...

no head system is perfect, but VF are no worst than the others

Absolutely true. Every toilet system has its pros and cons. Every toilet system is the best and the greatest until you have to work on it. You just have to pick which battles you rather (or rather not) fight. ...just like air conditioning! I'm becoming a pro in both of those departments!

[Finalee]

I am happy with the VF in my boat. no @#&*.

[captbuddy]

The guy at VF told me several months back that you are not suppose to be able to adjust the switch but he could re-calibrate it if I sent it back. He said it should cost about $50. That was about 3 or 4 months ago. I think they were in Ft. Lauderdale. I just bought a new one because I had already tried to adjust mine before I called.
captbuddy

[MikeP]

"There is one sure way to keep from having VF issues---Replace it with different head system."

Totally concur - just another in the seemingly endless list of VF "issues." Kind of like buying a Land Rover...the cachet of something cool with the reality of nothing but problems.

[GJH]

These VF threads always flummox me. We have lived on board this 3 VF boat full time now for 2 years. I have spent much, MUCH less time dealing with these toilets than I did with the ones on land. And no, my crew doesn't particularly pay attention to the "rules" nor do our guests. The things are easy to service if you have to (I haven't, really, other than a couple of applications of silicon grease), and the fresh water, low water use aspect is very nice. I can't imagine having anything else, unless someone gave me a set of Headhunters. Other than those, fuggedaboutit!

[SKYCHENEY]

and deal with the other system issues...

i got 3 on my boat... 4 on the boat i captain... had one on my old boat... the things are near bullet proof. Even with charter guests... and these folks are often not used to marine heads.

no head system is perfect, but VF are no worst than the others

Glad to hear you have not had problems. I don't particularly like them (as you know). So far, after 3 years, my Atlantes are the best heads we have ever owned. Time will tell, I'm sure. It's just amusing that the only toilet problem threads here seem to be about VF or GM.

[captddis]

Glad to hear you have not had problems. I don't particularly like them (as you know). So far, after 3 years, my Atlantes are the best heads we have ever owned. Time will tell, I'm sure. It's just amusing that the only toilet problem threads here seem to be about VF or GM.


Imagine that, Hatt used GM and VF heads on their boats, So it seems logical that those are the heads that are asked about. Like the mechanic at the Ford dealership saying that he sees a lot of broken Fords.

[Pete]

Eight years and still going strong on two VF systems. No failures. Only replacements have been a set of duck bill valve both in the two vacuum pumps and discharge pump. This was preventive maintenance when I attended the Lauderdale Show and Sealand had a great buy on the valves. I do pump more water with each flush than the minimum required just to make myself feel the lines are rinsed. Also, annually wipe some silicone grease on the bowl ball seal. Could not be more satisfied. One advantage, I think, is when these units were installed, the vacuum pumps were installed within three feet of the head.

Pete

[GJH]

Pete raises an excellent point. One common mistake people make with these heads is not flushing through enough water. The manual says three seconds, but too many folks let the pedal up immediately. If there is, shall we say, a large load, putting more water into the bowl before flushing, then keeping the pedal down for, say 10 seconds, keeps everything nice and clear, still with minimal water use. This is particularly relevant if you have a long run twixt head and pump; it is about 12 feet for our master stateroom unit.

[SKYCHENEY]

Imagine that, Hatt used GM and VF heads on their boats, So it seems logical that those are the heads that are asked about. Like the mechanic at the Ford dealership saying that he sees a lot of broken Fords.

Very good point. You could also point out that the Atlantes has not been around nearly as long as those other systems, so it seems logical that there would not be as many out there and they would not be as old.

That said, we had numerous problems with a VF in a 43 Tiara that were never corrected. It also seemed that we worked on the VF in our 49 Gulfstar quite often and that boat was a purchased new. I just find it strange that there are so many questions. If they were simple to fix and to keep running as designed, it seems that we'd have fewer questions and frustrations expressed.

You know how it is. Some people will never buy a Ford because they got a lemon once. That doesn't stop others from being quite loyal to them. My experience with numerous brands of marine toilets may differ from yours, but I rate VF on the list after our current Atlantes and the GalleyMaids that they replaced.

[Beckytek]

I have been on many different boats, all makes and models and most of them have VF heads. I have never seen a Atlantes head on one boat yet. Seems like the boat manufacturers like them. Mine is 21 tears old and I have not had to touch it in 6 years, 5 years on a previous boat. They must have made mine pretty good.