Radiant Heat Flooring

[nyrussell]

I was wondering if it would be hard to install radiant heat in the floor now that i am at the sub-flooring. I already have a hydronic heating system installed....

Wife seems to like bamboo hard wood for the floor, but we did bring home some samples. I am awaiting the Amtico samples

Noel

[REBrueckner]

Yes, it would be hard and you'll lose an inch or so of headroom as well...that would be a big job...

[SeaEric]

Last winter, I sold a 48' Ocean motor yacht for a customer who had been a liveaboard. All 3 heads on that boat had radiant electric heat under the ceramic tile flooring. There was a little thermostat in each head. He said it made it really comfy on cold mornings, and with the cabinet left open helped prevent fresh water system ice-up in the plumbing. If I were a liveaboard in a cold climate, I'd sure look into this.

[krush]

You have to have a base to put the piping in. Like, if you do it in a house with a wood floor, you need to bascailly use a grout material to lay the piping in.

Then, because radiant heat floors can't accept the hot water from the boiler, you need to put in mixing valves to get it down to around 120deg max.

I think putting in baseboards or radiators would be a lot easier and more practical in a boat.

[nyrussell]

Lets see, the saloon already as the floor heated from the engine room, so only 2 areas need to be laid, the masters cabin and the galley/v berth areas. I have most of the man runs for the coolant ran from the hydronics system so getting the system wired in should not be too big of a hassle. I have enough room in these areas to lose an inch. As for regulating the temperature of the flooring, that is where it might get a lil sticky but maybe not, a thermostat to control the temp going in.... will ave to see. Not too many runs either as these are small areas to begin with.

Electric is not what i am looking for as I have the basics set up with the hydronic heater for the coolant system. Not sure what I can use as an underlayment yet, maybe a hard foam?

Noel

[REBrueckner]

In thinking about your question, I'd still advise "more trouble than it's worth" however there are some possibilities. One would be to simply coil an extra length of your existing type of hydronic heater hose up against the underside of the wood sub flooring....wherever you can reach....attach with hose clamps..metal or plastic...Another alternative is to use a rug in cold weather, perhaps even with padding under for additional insulation down low.

An easier option is to use a 120volt space heater...a long wavelength type that heats objects and use it when you are in,say, a bathroom or as in winter on my boat, I just use a traditional fan forced electric heater in my head when I shower on the low (750 watt) setting. While I shower it's on and when I step out the small room is nice and toasty....so maybe I use it for five minutes or so daily... Even with exhorbitant Westchester county electric rates of about 24 cents per KWH it costs less than a penny.

When aboard my boat as I was a few days this week (NY, near freezing temps) I always wear either an extra heavy pair of socks, and sometimes slip on a pair of heavy duty woolen hunting type socks over reguilar ones...so while my aft stateroom floor may be cool, as it's down low, my feet are not.

And you can heat your salon floor, if it isn't already, by keeping your engine room under it warm. I have baseboard radiation/ fin type along the outer edges of my engine room. It stays at least as warm as the rest of the boat and as a result the salon floor is always comfortable.

[nyrussell]

Rob,

You had a great setup when I saw it the other day, I am looking into this as i had to tear out the carpet as stated in another post so why not look at all possibilities... Great idea about the fuel line hoses being added... think the heat transfer will be enough? might I want to consider another manifold for the hot coolant to run the flooring? BTW, the circuit board on the heater was the issue as to the thermostats not running right it seems.

will need to cogitate on this a bit more....

Thanks,

Noel

[nyrussell]

Okay, Spoke to a guy from the radiant design institute (http://www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/page71.html) or some thing like that, he stated why not hang some foil, double bubble, foil insulation from the "joists" and then route out the slots for the plex tubing like he did for his RV. This way the plex won't move and it will also heat the wood floor directly when we place it right over the plex. Also, he thinks the heater won't get the coolant over 120 so that should be fine too. I will check with the manufacturer to be sure but... might work :D. As for the pump, i will use the one already installed so that will be easy and just take the runs off of the ones already placed in the boat to the plex (easier too). If the routing goes as planned, woohoo we have lift off.

Noel

[Jackman]

I don't have a big enough Hat to do this but you got me thinking....Wouldn't the heating and subsequent cooling of a wooden floor eventually lead to its destruction? Not to mention the moisture that would buildup around the pipes that you'd install. Just curious. Sounds like a really neat idea.

[SKYCHENEY]

check out this: http://www.warmboard.com/

My dad has this stuff in his house and it works great. I think the only way to do it in a boat would be remove the sub-floor and start with the warm board, otherwise it would add too much height.

[nyrussell]

I don't have a big enough Hat to do this but you got me thinking....Wouldn't the heating and subsequent cooling of a wooden floor eventually lead to its destruction? Not to mention the moisture that would buildup around the pipes that you'd install. Just curious. Sounds like a really neat idea.

Not sure about that as we already have that happening on our boats as per the heating and cooling. As for the moisture, shouldn't be a problem I think as heat would be present in the system anyways while it was on. And unless it is too warm these days I do not intend to run the A/C much anymore (kid has to get used to some temp changes after all)

Noel

But I will think about it a bit....

[nyrussell]

check out this: http://www.warmboard.com/

My dad has this stuff in his house and it works great. I think the only way to do it in a boat would be remove the sub-floor and start with the warm board, otherwise it would add too much height.

Looks Interesting... Wonder what i need to do to run it around the saloon hatches to?

Noel

[REBrueckner]

Heating and cooling of wood flooring does not entail moisture. no more than a radiator sweats. My Webasto hoses are tied and routed alongside my sink hose for about six feet and when the heater is on, the water at my aft head is moderately warm...so there IS heat transfer.

The warmboard is the conceptual way to do this job...As you see the finished floor is over the heating tube...alternatively you can take the old floor up, run some foil insulation draped between the floor beams, route water hose/pvc or whateever there and cover with new plywood, foam and rug on top...or you can run Home Cheapo style fin heater lengths between the floor beams with foil below and then cover with flooring....all the same idea....that would SURELY take the chill from floors.

The concept is sound, it's just a lot of work....

[nyrussell]

Rob,

Pull up the floor board, run the insulation then replace and route the existing subfloor with the new floor over should work. Lot of work, but the benefit of would be good in the long run. the only thing missing would be the aluminum transfer sheet. BTW, the runs would be short as i intend to tap the existing hoses where they are. And the saloon could only get a few coils anyways.

I think it is a doable plan without much cost besides my labor.

Noel

[nyrussell]

Just spoke with Warmboard. They sent me to Hatteras when i asked them about subflooring. Spoke to Alan Hill at Hatteras and he requested a drawing of the job to make sure I will not hurt the fiberglass. Here is the drawing I sent.

[krush]

Are you using natural hardwood flooring? The reason I ask is because the humidity in the summer and super drying in winter could cause some complications if not accounted for.

You need foam or fluffy insulation under the pipes to keep from wasting energy heating the hull/water. Foil isn't really necessary as pipes really aren't that emissive per se.

[nyrussell]

Emgineered Bamboo or maple it seems. As for the foil, recommended and i will be using the foil, double bubble foil and maybe some hard (i think green) insulation as well.

BTW the humidity in the boat now is between 35-40% with the dehumidifier on....

[nyrussell]

Got an off the record reply it sounds like a good idea. So we shall forge ahead slowly.

Noel

[krush]

By foil do you mean the aluminum or do you mean the tin foil type insulation?

[nyrussell]

Krush, Foil, Double Bubble, Foil insulation

Noel

[nyrussell]

Here is where we are so far, Carpet out, subfloor repainted with exterior oil based semi gloss paint, concrete barrier insulation laid in Aft cabin, and joists in...

[nyrussell]

And with the paint on the floor

[nyrussell]

Paint and the concrete barrier...

[nyrussell]

More with the concrete barrier...

[nyrussell]

Now with the risers/joists in place...

[nyrussell]

Above abd one below are the initial layout for the "joists. I went around all the inspection hatches and set out the exterior boxes as well. Nothing was screwed down until now...

[nyrussell]

Last set of pictures so far following with all of the rest of the joists in place and screwed in with 1 5/8" square head stainless exterior deck screws counter sunk into the 1 1/2" pieces of wood.

[nyrussell]

Went back to the boat tonight to et the head out of the way for the floor ing and heat to be installed. I need to raise the head 1 1/2" plus the height of the laminate... pulled the head and a very thick covering of linoleum came up off the subfloor in one piece with no major problems, along with the wall paper (vinyl, white), and saw water damage and black mold on the wood behind the wall paper at the bottom of the shower. Oh well a project started 6 mnths earlier than planned. Damn, now i have electrical work to do behind the head. (washlet (www.totousa.com) install planning time) (I believe that is the correct address for Toto.) as well as planning the install of new counters and shelving/venting/cabinets now to as we are suddenly thrust into yet another project. LOL maybe an automatic faucet as well as a bowl sink eh.....

Noel

More pictures to come....

[nyrussell]

Okay, I have pics of the tubing laid under the floor around. Have to find them. Also, will post some of the final floor install. Here is some of the tubing and the insulation laid on the hull sides in the aft cabin.

[nyrussell]

more

[nyrussell]

and more

[nyrussell]

Well, I just turned on the heat and the floor is warm. The Admiral was all smiles last night about the difference. As for issues, have to Gravity feed more non-tox to get all the air out. If the gravity feed doesn't work, I borrowed a pump from my mechanic. But it worked!!!!