Awgrip roll and tip techniques

[mikfin]

Hi Folks,

I'm repainting a '73 HAT 45C. I am wondering if anyone has any Awlgrip roll and tip techniques they especially like and would like to share. I have heard a few things such as tinkering with the amount of reducer depending on the temperature, keeping the brush used for tipping in a rag soaked with reducer, and using horizontal strokes with the brush followed by vertical strokes. I have never painted a boat, though I have done just about everything else you can do, on this so far, 4 year project.

Any tips at all would be appreciated-such as best time of day to start, when to stop, taping tricks, etc. There are two of us painting the boat in central florida, so we'll have to take it in sections I presume.

Thanks,

Mike

[Maynard Rupp]

This should be a good topic. i have never painted Awlgrip except by spraying. Many yards no longer allow spraying. I have picked a few brains about roll and tip. Of course you need to use #3 catalyst, called "brushing cataylist". They seem to roll the hull sides horizontally and brush tip vertically. Most use a foam roller and brush. The foam brush is softened by the Awlgrip so most wrap their new brush with several layers of loosly done blue masking tape. this allows only the tip to get to the paint. the real problem with brushing Awlgrip is that it has very little color depth. When spraying you just wait until your last coat gets tacky and spray the next one. For good color depth and hiding of the original finish you need to spray 3 or 4 coats. With rolling and brushing you have to wait at least a full day and re-sand the entire boat before you can re-coat. The other problem is that priming before painting is impossible. Primer needs to be sprayed and if the yard won't allow spraying, you sure can't roll primer.

[SeaEric]

I just had my boat painted from the rub rail up. It was a roll and tip job done by a professional, right in my (covered) boat slip. He did prime it, and there was no spraying. The results are amazing. My boat looks like brand new and shines like a diamond. I'm very pleased. I did my best to stay away while the work was going on so I wouldn't drive the guys crazy. So, I didn't pick up on any of their technique unfortunately. All I can say is: Awlgrip rolled and tipped by someone who knows how to do it renders a job as good as spray. My deck and cabin looks every bit as good as the hull, which was a spray job.

[spartonboat1]

Quote: "...on this so far, 4 year project..." yea, verily, so far! But you're having fun!

[Akyla]

You can absolutely roll and tip the primer as well. In fact, the quality of the final finish coat is highly dependant upon getting the primer coat(s) on properly. You may not need a primer coat if you are going over a previous awlgrip finish that is still in good mechanical bond with the surface, but just faded, etc. If you are going to repaint due to repair work, or the color coat is so bad after you prep sand, it is manditory to primer coat it. There are diferent primers as well, the high build is very good over repairs and helps fill in to make a much smoother finish.

You do need to buy yourself a resperator with canisters for the fumes. 3M makes a reasonably priced one in either full face or half mask that works well. The fumes will give you a serious headache otherwise...

I do not use a foam brush to tip, but a very good quality bristle brush. The direction of the rolling/tipping is not really the issue, just dont go the same direction for each succesive coat. Also, have patience as it will take a minimum of two color coats and probably more to make it have depth of shine and have that "inch deep" look. If you try and put on too much paint at one pass you will get draperies and then you have to fix those before the next coat. On hot days you need to move fast if working alone and if you have a helper that can follow closey with the tipping it helps out. Dont be trempted to go back into the paint to fix up a boo-boo once it starts to set, just get it the next coat. Two of you can easliy get a good coat on a 45 in one long day if your work is planned out or you can do one half the hull per day. The killer is the sanding between coats, even though it is just a light sanding , it is still lots of surface to hit.

It takes some to "learn" the paint system, but once you do it is not impossible for even amatuers like us to turn out a very nice result. The main thing is the preperation, don't even bother to do it unless you are willing to do proper cleaning and preperation.

[skrmetta90]

I just repainted my stern in order to change the name. I primed and painted using the roll and tip method, also using awlgrip. I'm pleased with the results, though I'm no professional. I could have done a better job, but being this was the first time I've tried this, I was satisfied. I mixed the converter and the reducer in accordance with product description. If you can get some tips from some guys who know what they're doing I think you'll have some great results. I've heard messing with the mixture can give you a better finish, so like i said, find some guys who are in the know and you'll be good.

[Capt K]

As far as I know, the reason to do your final tip on each coat vertically is so water and dirt will run down evenly. If you tip horizontally, the water and dirt will travel a little accross the brush marks and show up more due to spreading out farther. The vertical method keeps things going mostly straight down.

I have seen our yard brush and tip boats up to 70' and they look pretty damn good! It's all in the prep and experience.
K

[mikfin]

Thanks for the helpful tips.

One of the great things about this forum is it allows people who really love boats (especially Hatteras boats) to gain wisdom and experience in advance of their actual wisdom and experience by providing tips and techniques that can save a whole lot of time, money, and frustration.

So far I have added lifting rails (thanks to a member who sent a detailed decription of his lifting rail installation) installed 8" exhaust, ripped off the old flybridge and added a Slane flybridge, pulpit, and engine vents, ripped out and replaced the aft salon bulkhead (due to dryrot), sistered a new aft engine room bulkhead(because of a crack) , totally rebuilt (out of the boat) my 6v92's, and am building new fiberglass window frames, a new salon door, competely rewiring the boat and from the forward engine room bulkhead aft, replaced the aluminum bow rail stanchion plates (because of oxidation due to poor hardware bedding from a previous owner), have a new FE-241 fire extinguishing system, all new electronics, gel-peeled the hull and relaminated it, barrier coated the hull, a new bonding system,... well...you get the idea. Alot of you have the same sickness I have with make something that was really nice even better. Sorry about my punctuation, One of those sentences is too long, I'm sure.

So, now I'm getting ready to roll and tip. any more tips and techniques would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Mike

[Starman]

I have rolled and tipped awl grip and when done, there were ZERO brush marks. The differences in the catalyst/converter and the reducer is simply the drying time, giving a person more time to roll and tip.

The same science of application for second and third coats applies to the roll and tip job as it does to the spray method. You must wait between coats, a minimum of 15 minutes. I add an additional 5-10 minutes for each additional coat.

I roll and tip straight up and down. Sideways will sag.

Like any job, it is the prep work that counts. And I am a firm believer in the awl grip primer. You can roll it on like you would paint the walss in your house. Then it can be and should be sanded slick. I use a porter cable DA with sticky back 220 3m Grit paper on a 6" pad.

good luck.

[bdewar]

I never used Awlgrip before last spring. The quality of the finish is directly proportional to the quality of the prepared surface before the primer and between each coat !!!!!!!!! It will take at least 1 primer and 3 finish coats.

[mike]

FWIW, one of the largest yacht yards in the Netherlands uses the roll & tip method. They claim a thicker coat and deeper sheen when applied by this method. On 100' yachts they use a team of 5 guys working at two levels to keep a wet edge. There is a full article on their technique in one of the industry's professional periodicals.

[Captainfred]

I have used Sterling for the past 18yrs but I understand that Awlgrip is just as user friendly and provides similar results. I have found that using foam rollers and tipping off with a good bristle brush, not foam, (3" - 4") works well. Always work with a helper (one to roll and one to brush). Have alot of rollers and clean buckets handy and don't mix large batches of catalyzed paint. You don't want the stuff gelling (kicking) when your 3/4 through the job. If using scaffolding have a third person to move or remove the scaffolding as you work your way around the boat. Perfect the technique on a 4 x 8 sheet of wood or masonite prior to putting material on the boat. You have to find the "sweet spot" of applying enough material to cover but not so much that you wind up with sags. Do not overwork the brushing portion. Tipping means exactly that. One or two light swipes and move on. Don't let the guy (gal) who is rolling get too far ahead. Read the instructions provided by the manufacturer and DON'T deviate from the instructions. They have put alot of time and money into R&D so don't be mixing in product that does not belong in the mix (Penetrol, alcohol, acetone, etc). I guess thats about all of my 2 cents worth and it is time for my nap. Good luck with the project.

Captainfred

[Brian Degulis]

I prime if it needs it then sand. I use the brushing reducer sometimes mixed with a little spraying reducer if the temperature is below 70 or if there isn't any breeze. I always use a little of the inhibited x138 acelerator. I put the first coat on using high quality short nap roller and bristle brush. When it's touch dry maybe a little beyond that the second coat goes on then usually a third. I'm not overly carfull about the first 2-3 coats then I wait at least 12 hours sand that down and carefully put on one final finish coat. The first 2-3 coats gives you the hide and the last coat gives you the smooth shine. It is absouloutly possible to get the same quality rolling and tiping as you get spraying it's just a lot more time consuming as far as the paint aplication goes. It's all about the reducer and matching it to the conditions and temperatures your working in big flat areas have to be slowed down or you can't keep up with it. Smaller more complex areas need to be acelerated to avoid runs and get coverage.

Brian

[bobk]

I got some good advice from a pro in Rock Hall, MD. he said use only a badger hair brush for tipping, and a 'candy stripe' roller for rolling. Clean both frequently so they don't get paint set up in them. It almost takes a dedicated person (wife) to keep up with brush and roller cleaning. To take fuzz out of the roller, he suggested wrapping it in duct tape, squeezing and then pulling off the tape, and repeating the process untill no more fuzz comes off. Tipping should be vertical. When I first did a trawler this way, most people could not tell it was not a spray job. The key is to thinn the mix enough so it 'levels' well.

The next paint job was done by a pro in Florida. he used Home Box hot dog rollers and didn't do much tipping. He got a better job than I did. Again, thin well and prepare well. The only issues with the pro's job was some spots that were not sanded and preped well lost adhesion. The pro touched them up well enough to suite me.

Bob

[mikfin]

Hey, this is really helpful.

A few questions. Does mixing a little spray reducer to the brush reducer speed up the drying time? What does the x138 accelerator do to the process? What are candy stripe and Home Box hot dog rollers, and where are they sold? Also, how wet should the brush be kept, and with what, paint or reducer? Iit sounds like some some people can roll the paint without tipping and get good results. Is this done by thinning the paint more, or something else?

Thanks,

Mike

[Brian Degulis]

Yes the spraying reducer is faster evaporating so it sets up quicker but to much or if it's very hot or windy will stop it from flowing out. That's the delicate balance slow enough to work with it and get it to flow out and fast enough to prevent runs. Pretty much the same principal as thining paint to spray but more critical when brushing because you have more control when spraying. The x 138 is an acelerator it acelerates the cure keep in mind it also lowers the pot life. It has very little efect on how the paint goes on only how quickly it cures. I always use a little much less than the full ad that way I can do my final sanding after an overnight dry and it sands without cloging. The other reason is that on complex areas where you might not be able to brush it out completly and end up with some thick spots like in the corners it will still cure hard.

Brian