Engine Room Access

[Gunsmoke]

Hi guys:
I searched a lot of threads here, but I can't find any info on this.
Which would allow you more room to work in? A 45 Hatt with 692's, or a 46 Hatt with 892's?
Is there a definitive sized engine room for these boats from say, 1985 to 1990? Or, is there a difference in engine room size, depending on the year?
There is a 46 that I might be interested in with 892's that I haven't seen yet, (out of state) but I was wondering how crowded the bigger engines would be. I've looked at 45 Hatts with 692's, and that seems to be workable.
I would appreciate your expertise, cause I got a lot to learn. ;)
regards
gunsmoke

[J's Dream]

I don't know if this helps you...but I have a 45C with 8v92N's. I have more than enough room to work in the engine room. The only bad job is replacing batteries, which are outboard of each motor...and what makes it bad is the pure weight of the batteries. Once they're in, if you have to do some work on the outboard sides of the motors, you can sit on the battery box and acces everything.

Jason

[Gunsmoke]

Jason: What #'s do you get with the 8 naturals?

regards
steve

[Genesis]

The 8Vs will be significantly tighter in the engine room, but its all forward - which is not that big of a deal anyway since you can't crawl in there with the 6s.

Other than that, no material difference. The engines are the same width and height - its just two more cylinders length-wise.

[J's Dream]

Jason: What #'s do you get with the 8 naturals?

regards
steve

If it's propped right, and right now it's not, it will get about 22-25 knots wide open, depending on load. Now, it'll run about 17-20 with the props on there now. As of now, I'm burning just over 30 gals/hour.

[J's Dream]

The 8Vs will be significantly tighter in the engine room, but its all forward - which is not that big of a deal anyway since you can't crawl in there with the 6s.

Other than that, no material difference. The engines are the same width and height - its just two more cylinders length-wise.

Karl,

I have over 24" between the fwd engine room bulkhead and the front of the motors. Thats how I get my batteries around to the outside, from the front.

[Genesis]

On the 45s the batteries are in the cockpit behind the bulkhead, and have a hatch directly overhead. Dirt trivial to get to.

But - there is only about a foot forward between the pully and bulkhead at the front of the ER. With 8Vs (I've seen the boat rigged this way) you ain't getting ANYTHING between the front pulley and the bulkhead.

The 46s are different.....

[J's Dream]

They must have changed the design down there from series I to series II. I have a tremendous amount of space forward of the motors...there's a plywood platform up there with one of my A/C units on it and still room to crawl around.

[J's Dream]

I measured this afternoon from the heat exchanger to the forward bulkhead and I have 32" to get through. I LOVE having that space...don't find that on too many boats!

[hattitude]

"I searched a lot of threads here, but I can't find any info on this.
Which would allow you more room to work in? A 45 Hatt with 692's, or a 46 Hatt with 892's?"

My understanding is that the engine room on the 46' is actually larger than the engine room on the 45'.

If Genesis says there is no room in a 45' with 8V71's than the 46' does have a larger engine room. I have a 1980 46C and can get all around both my motors which are the 8V71's. I have 24-25" between the bulkhead and front of the heat exchanger, about the same between the outboard of the engine and the hull side, and almost double that from the rear of the engine and the rear bulkhead.

Comparing from one boat to another the 8V92's don't look much different than the 8V71's. The 8V92's are more displacement, but I am unaware of how much difference there is in the physical size.

FWIW.. good luck with the search,

Bernie

[Gunsmoke]

Thanks for the responses guys. I really appreciate it. I finally got the admiral convinced that we need another boat. And in the words of Chief Brody, " we need a bigger boat". I think the 45 or 46 would do it, I just don't want to screw this up!
regards
steve

[Genesis]

The Series II 45s are awesome. I owned one for five years and loved every minute of it. Well-built, great seakeeping, just all-around nice.

[Gunsmoke]

Genesis: What are the differences between the 45 and the 45 series 11??
regards
steve

[Genesis]

There is a fairly significant difference in the hullshape - the Series IIs tend to be better sea boats and a bit more efficient, but the older ones aren't bad!

I prefer the layout too - its a personal thing. The Series II 45s were Galley down and port, with a midship master (either double or twins; the double is IMHO the better setup) and a forward V-berth. A single head was most common although there were a few boats made with a second head in the V-berth - I have a friend who owns one and I can't imagine why someone would order that, to be honest (a head right next to where you sleep, in the same compartment?! No thanks!)

The ER on the Series IIs is a bit tight, but not intolerable. The batteries are aft of the bulkhead under the cockpit sole, which is an excellent location for them. I HATE batteries you can't get to easily. My only real complaint with the ER on the Series IIs lies in the AC compressors (outboard starboard) and the water heater (outboard port.) The head system is Vacuflush and "just works" as stock - although some people have butchered them (which IMHO is a HUGE mistake!)

The cockpit is very fishable, the bridge well-laid-out. I can steer with my feet, which I like to do on long cruises. The instruments are all visible with no sight-lines blocked. Sightlines forward and aft are excellent from the helm as well. Everything "just works" in terms of how the boat is laid out and how things flow - you can walk around inside her at night and not bang your head or trip on something when you need a soda at 3:00 AM.

To give you an idea how sound the basic structure of these boats is the Series II 45Cs have two struts - an intermediate and then the one at the prop. This is great if you have good hull stability (lots of support for the shaft) but an utter disaster if not, as with that much stability in the shaft if things drift you will DESTROY transmission bearings.

When I bought mine the cutlass bearings were documented as having been done about two years prior. During the entire time I owned the boat they NEVER needed ANY attention whatsoever - when I was out prior to selling her they were still nice and tight, and on survey no trouble was noted! That's seven years - and that boat was NOT a dock queen during the five I owned her!

Over the entire time I owned her the total alignment drift was six thousandths on one engine, four on the other. That's impossible to argue with in terms of structural stability.....

Oh, and here's another one - other than some stress cracks around the half-tower mounting legs on the bridge, my boat had ZERO cracks anywhere else. Not in the deckhouse, not in the corners of the deck, not where the gunnels and deckhouse sides met, zero. Anywhere. At all.

Perhaps the biggest "gotcha" with them is that virtually EVERY one I've looked at (and this includes some Series Is as well) which had a pulpit on it with the windlass had the windlass and pulpit improperly bedded. EVERY ONE! Now I'm sure I didn't look at them all, but I rejected TWO when I was looking that had obvious problems in this area - and later discovered mine had trouble too, but it hadn't gotten beyond the backing plates where I could detect it yet by sounding when I bought it, and as a consequence both I and the surveyor missed it. This was a MAJOR job to fix, and the previous owner of mine KNEW there was trouble in there as he ran epoxy (!) into the gap between the pulpit and the deck - this I discovered when I tried to dismount the pulpit, and wound up having to use prybars and chisels to slowly cut away the joint! NOT fun.

Since I fixed mine I've checked a friend's (his has trouble but he's taking a trip on the river "de-nile"!) and I know of another that was at my former marina that I also checked for its owner and it too had trouble there. I'd say expect trouble in the forepeak area and hope it hasn't gotten beyond the bulkhead - if not you can fix it from the underside which is less intrusive, although either way its a ROYAL biatch of a job (see my thread here on it.)

I would INSIST on pulling one of the windless mounting bolts during the survey/inspection process and probing in there with a pick or some kind of tool, or using a relatively-high-powered light to have a look-see at what that hole looks like. If the pick comes out wet - and its a good bet it will - you've got big trouble down the road..... Exceptions made for those who have already fixed it, of course!

IMHO a "nearly ideal" boat of this size and type would be a Series II 45C that had tired (or dead) engines but was structurally sound. I'd take her and repower with either QSC-540s or, if you're a speed demon, QSM-660s. Either will fit - the QSCs will give you a LOT of room and a modest speed improvement (~20-22kt cruise, 25ish at the top) while the QSM-660s will easily break 30kts. Both will result in a MUCH more social (quiet) boat, cut fuel burn by 20% or more at cruise (I know someone who did this, and I couldn't believe his fuel numbers - with the QSMs he was seeing 36gph at 22kts, while I was burning the same at 18!) I'd probably go for a total refit on the cosmetics too, and get rid of the sliding door (which I personally hate - the lower track traps water, even with the weep holes, and the bulkhead invariably gets damaged as a consequence) while I was at it.

You'd spend all-up about half a mil doing this, but you'd have a boat that IMHO would blow away anything from the production builders of today, and it would have the timeless lines of the Hatteras. I'd put the Hatt's seakeeping up against anything out there in today's "newfangled" boats when things get nasty. Total investment would be just under half of what a "new one" would cost, which would pay for a hell of a lot of fuel, dockage and insurance.....

[Gunsmoke]

Genesis: Thanks for posting so much info on the 45C. The series 11 sounds exactly what I am looking for. I read your post about the pulpit problems last week, and already made some notes on it. :D

I have seriously considered the QSM-660's for a repower after I find the right boat. You have a strong arguement, however, in one of your other posts, for overhauling the 692's FOUR times, at the same price. I have researched a heluva lot on this site, and boat diesel, as well, and the 660's sound like the perfect engines for the 45 or 46. What would your take be on Slane doing that job, as well as some incidentals? Is there a yard in Jersey that you would recommend, as life would certainly be easier for me.
Also, what years was the series 11 built?

Finally, do you think I would be better off looking in Fla, rather than locally? I intend to use Pasco as the surveyor, as I have all his books. :)
It might be cheaper than flying him up to Jersey, and getting him a hotel room!
regards
steve

[Genesis]

I don't think you can beat Slane for the cosmetics on a refit (eg.. interior, etc) - they know these boats as well as anyone does.

On the repower, talk to all the local people too. You may need support, and you want local dealer support on the engines. I would anyway. That can make or break the deal, because there is a dialing-in process you have to go through with any new power (even on a new boat!) which may entail some prop changes, etc - and you want that done locally, with dealer involvement, as part of the price.

Pascoe is good, but he's not the only surveyor in the world. He's also in Destin nowdays..... South Florida has more boats than anywhere else, but that doesn't mean you'll find the right boat at the right price there - that can happen anywhere.

Its a tough call between doing lots of majors and repowering. The question is this - do you want an 18kt boat or a 25kt one? If the answer is 25, then you know what needs to be done, because with 500HP 6V92s the 45C will only see 25kts either on the pins (which ain't a nice way to treat a pair of engines) or downwind in a hurricane!

[saltshaker]

The 46C has a much larger ER than the 45C. The 46C cabin is slightly bigger but and has 2 heads. I have been on both boats in rough seas and prefer the 46C over the 45C but both are great sea boats. I have a 46C with 6V92's, which replaced the old 8V71's. There is a lot of room fore and aft of the engines, more than enough for me to get completely around them. with the down angle gears I have enough room to work on the top end of the engines without pulling up any hatches.

As far as having Tom Slane do the repower, If I had to do it again Tom would be doing my boat. I am in NJ and went to LI NY for the work. They did a great job but the overages hit hard. $100pr hr and padding the hours added up to big money fast. With Tom you know you will get top notch work without being jerked around. In the end I think it would be a lot cheaper.

[Gunsmoke]

Genesis: I now have about 15 pages of notes, from some of your threads. :eek: I really appreciate your time and expertise. That's why I luv "boat people". Too bad for me, ya don't live in Jersey, cause I could give you a full time hobby, after I find my Hatt. :D

Salt: I have heard Slane's name mentioned on every boating forum I've been on. 99% Positive, so I guess he's one of the top options for repower, and structural. I learned a long time ago, You get what you pay for! (most of the time)

regards
steve

[MikeP]

Re repower - If they both exploded tomorrow, there's still no way I would consider replacing the DDs (8v71TI) in our 53MY with "modern" engines. The DDs are easy to work on, parts are easy to find and cheap (relatively) and they drop right in since the boat was designed for them.

However, when Karl finishes development on his diesel/electric drive, I'll be interested!

[Capt K]

Yeah, Mike, I have older 871n's and I agree with you. I cruise east of you in the Clinton, Ct area and go nowhere in a big hurry. EASY, INEXPENSIVE, & PARTS AVAILABILITY. Now, if, and when, one of those three disappear, who knows. A friend of mine with a 1968 (I think) 50'MY replaced his DD with modern engines and he swears by them. He gets a good, honest 16 knot cruise. However, it just doesn't sound like an old classic Hatt to me.

He goes from Old Saybrook to the City occaissionally to take out clients, so he likes the new speed, low noise, and clean engine rooms.

Oh, well, I still like my old "leakers"!

K

[worldsaway]

I have a 1989 45C. The layout in the 1989-91 years is slightly different in that the master stateroom has an angled double berth and a private head with stall shower. There is a separte head portside and just fwd of the galley in the companionway. The fwd stateroom has over/under berths on strd side. There was also some exterior styling changes in the form of the salon windows, flybridge windscreen and a solid front windshield. These models have the 535hp 692 with a 2:1 reduction gear which gives you a 20kt cruise at 1925-1950rpm. Outboard engine access in the ER is a bit of a challenge as Genesis mentioned due to A/C units strb and water heater port. I cut access hatches in the salon so you can drop down fwd of those obstacles on the outboard side of the engines. No way to get around the front. I have been extremely pleased with everything about this boat. I have a friend with the 46C and you can't go wrong with either one. Good luck.

[Genesis]

You needed to cut hatches?!

My entire floor in my '85 came up! Well, almost all of it - all the way side-to-side (to the wall, basically) and aft to just forward of the genset.

The only floor system I've seen that was better than my Hatt's was on a late 80s POST I looked at. That floor LITERALLY hinged up on both sides and left the ENTIRE engine room accessible! It was an amazing piece of work and IMHO the best service access I've EVER seen on a boat that didn't have full stand-up room in the ER.

[worldsaway]

Yep the floor comes up alright but is not very convienient for routine maint checks. The port side has a built in cabinet which contains a wet bar storage area and and ice maker and takes up 1/2 the that side. To gain outboard access you had to pull the carpet back,pull the floorboard up from around the cabinet and then you were still coming down almost on top of the waterheater. Hardly a user freindly operation for a quick outboard check. Now you just open the cabinet door to the storage area,pull up the hatch and drop right in,fwd of the water heater. Strb side salon has a large u shaped couch on the outboard side runs the entire length of the salon. To move it requires moving the other two sections of the u, and lifting the couch straight up (since it is only abt 2inches shorter that the space between the aft bulkhead and the fwd cabinet) The couch is HEAVY and then pull back the carpet. With the hatch you dont have to move the couch at all, just open the couch storage area, open the hatch beneath and drop right down fwd of the a/c units. Floors come still come up for the more serious work but I find I'm more apt to regularly check outboard hoses clamps etc if its easier to get to. I think the interior salon layout/furnishings differed slightly from the setup in yours Genesis. By the way, I took out the icemaker that was located in the portside cabinet and replaced it with a self contained 16k BTU air conditioner. Sound proofed the cabinet and all you hear is the fan blowing but the salon will stay at 72 even in the Fl summertime heat.

[Genesis]

That layout sounds very similar to how mine was laid out....

I was able to crawl around to the outboard side of the engines via the aft end on both sides with a flashlight to do routine spot-look-sees, but to actually get IN there you had to pull the carpet and the floor.

The way I had my carpet set up I could have the floor up in about 5 minutes - no big deal at all.

[Paul45c]

However, it just doesn't sound like an old classic Hatt to me.


The sound is EVERYTHING! I've got 6v92 500's, and if I ever had to repower, I'd first have to make a really high end recording of them to lull myself to sleep. It's like a sweet 60's musclecar on steroids. LOVE that rumble, especially when you get a nice echo off the dock and seawall. I wouldn't care of my 45c SerII only went 10 kts. :cool: