Repower?

[Pete]

I know the following may be judged as DD heresy, but after spending much of yesterday in my engine room trying to make my 453's look presentable, I am having thoughts of maybe repower is not such a bad idea. The size of my engines and possible repower requirements are far below the mainstream of engines that interest most members, but given the wealth of knowledge available on HOF, I decided to look for opinions and facts that may be helpful in limiting the field of candidates.

So here goes, somewhere between 160 and 180 HP, 4 cylinder due to available space, compatible with existing 4" diameter exhaust, more work boat oriented than high performance technology, USA manufacturer.

Thanks

Pete

[Pascal]

John deer and Lugger are very popular in trawlers and apparently very reliable. Not cheap though Westebeke makes small diesels as well

Also the Cummins factory reman program is hard to beat price but I don't recall if they have anything smaller than 6 cyl

[SKYCHENEY]

You almost have to look at what the sailboat guys use. Perkins, Westerbeke, and Yanmar come to mind.

Or, for less money, just pull the 453's and rebuild them. New gaskets and seals, new paint. And good for another 30,000 hours.

[dottieshusband]

Pete, I think your on the right track. Repowering that vessel is the way to go. The money you save in fuel and maintenance will pay for the project, not to mention the vastly increased resale value. Lots of shops would love to do that kind of project, and could probably make quick work of it. Please post pics as you progress. Good luck!

[Pete]

Have a specific question on "tier ratings". Apparently this year a new marine diesel of the size that interest me has to be a tier 3 emissions control rating. I notice on the remanufactured options, these do not meet such a rating. So, my question is do remanufactured engines meet their original tier emission ratings, and offer an opportunity to decrease the complexity of the engine when compared to new?

Thanks

Pete

[jim rosenthal]

Fpr a bpat that age, you don't have to put in Tier III engines, I think. You can use anything from the Cummins reman program. They make some 4cyl B series engines which would suit.

I think you would spend far less to overhaul your 4-53s, though. And they already fit. How many thousand hours would you have to run that boat to get your investment back in the form of saved fuel? Quite a few, I suspect.

[BOATER BOB]

Check out the Perkins line of marine engines.

[Boatsb]

The engine you put in must meet or exceed the standards of the time the boat was manufacturered.

[Cricket]

Go for it, new, newer, reman modern diesel engines are a quantum leap forward from the 2-cycle Detroits.
Also, removing the engines allows easy access to get your engine room/bilge cleaned up, painted, etc.

[Avenger]

Pay attention to availability of service and support in your local and intended cruising area. For example, around here John Deere dealer are few, but in Maine where the lobstermen love those things Deere dealers are like Walgreens in Florida. There's one at every intersection.

[hunshatt]

Pete, I think your on the right track. Repowering that vessel is the way to go. The money you save in fuel and maintenance will pay for the project, not to mention the vastly increased resale value. Lots of shops would love to do that kind of project, and could probably make quick work of it. Please post pics as you progress. Good luck!



Vastly increase the value? from what Ive seen he'd be lucky to get the cost of the conversion back.

[hunshatt]

having said that ... I may be sticking a set of 6v53 twin turbos I bought(with gears) into my 34 gasser .. they were purchased when I had the 41 and the 6v53n's weren't enough to keep me amused

[yachtsmanbill]

Atomic 4

[Boatsb]

Atomic 4

I was thinking the old universal that ran backward for reverse.

[Pete]

With Harvey, Irma, and now Jose wandering around off the NC coast, it good to see some folks are in good humor.

Pete

[Boatsb]

Here's an engine room pic from an LRC type vessel.

[Boatsb]

No pic attached sorry.

[Fish Tales]

Bought a 1968 41c with Chrysler 440s.
Upgraded 5 years later with Chevy 454s.
Upgraded 5 years later with Cat 3126TAs.
Kept it over 20 years, sold it for a 45c with DDs.

Was going to re-power with Cummins, but sold the boat for a 65c with MTU 4 strokes.

LOVED them Cats. 10 kts faster, with half the fuel burn.
Worth every penny.

While engines were out Awlgripped the entire engine room white. Always looked wet and white inside. Also replaced genset with a diesel.

My advice is if you have the means, do it.

Tim

[jrbrein]

I was thinking the old universal that ran backward for reverse.

I had an old Westerbeke generator (in a sailboat I once owned) that ran in reverse only once and filled the engine room full of smoke. Scared me to death.

Jon

[Pete]

Now that is an engine room I can live with. Might even be able to live in it if you are completely deaf. And talk about engine access, WOW.

For the younger members, as you age you will find that "room" and "access" become even more appreciated. Getting in is not as much of a challenge as extracting yourself.

Pete

[Boatsb]

12 foot ceiling made for an interesting challenge. Ladders.

[Tim Powell]

I know the following may be judged as DD heresy, but after spending much of yesterday in my engine room trying to make my 453's look presentable, I am having thoughts of maybe repower is not such a bad idea. The size of my engines and possible repower requirements are far below the mainstream of engines that interest most members, but given the wealth of knowledge available on HOF, I decided to look for opinions and facts that may be helpful in limiting the field of candidates.

So here goes, somewhere between 160 and 180 HP, 4 cylinder due to available space, compatible with existing 4" diameter exhaust, more work boat oriented than high performance technology, USA manufacturer.

Thanks

Pete

the below guys are the ones who are purchasing my 892S this fall after the repower they got a lot of engines some new some used. You woll have to emai them and ask them to send you a list of what they currentely have. I do not have the most current list i deleated it.

http://www.spiritmarine.org/

tim

[Boatsb]

Tim what you putting in?

Start a thread on it maybe.

[Pete]

Another question. Given, you are only required to meet the emission standards in place when the boat was manufactured, are "NEW" replacement Detroit Diesel 453N or turbo marine engines available for purchase with a core of a like engine? Reason for question, my objection to the current engines is oil that should remain inside the engines finding the way to the exterior. These engines were rebuilt 16 years ago with great attention to try to seal them up tight, but did not work. I'm assuming if new production is available the precision of the newer parts should solve this problem; something that I will have to investigate if this is an option.

Thanks

Pete

[Tim Powell]

Tim what you putting in?

Start a thread on it maybe.

come on now you know me i do not spell worth a crap that would be a real task for me.

But to answer your question, frankley i am not 100% sure at this time. I was headed the cummings
rout qsm11 700 hp. However just this past week i had a call from a friend who was involved in the cat
test of the new 12.9. His time is up as of this past saturday. The engines are under warranty for two years be
gining this past saturday and have about 450 hours. They will push a 63 custom carolina about 30 knots cruse
he thought it would be around 34 35. He has offered them cheaper than the qsm11. The cats pushing 1000 hp there was some concern about strangers. I have ask Hatteras to look into it for me. Let me rephase that i have ask a retired Hatteras engineer to look into it.

[jim rosenthal]

Remanufactured DDs would probably leak as much as the originals did. You are fortunate to have rather small engines in that boat, so the cost of a repower with modern diesels is far less than it would be, say, for Tim.

[Pete]

The deeper I dig the more involved I find the process and the more changes required. So far, I have two twin cylinder Bendix air brake type compressors on the main engines that drive the Gyro Gale stabilizers; does not appear that today's diesels in my size have such takeoffs. The horsepower I am looking for, a little over 150HP, appears on the edge of what a four cylinder today can deliver, unless you go to the newest of the new John Deere electronic emission controlled engines. Going to six cylinder engines are limited by my 4" exhaust. Raw water pumps on different ends of the engines, and many other little things that start to add up, if not in costs but time and modifications. That is why a non leaker, perhaps turbo, 453 Detroit seems so appealing at this point. And a definite intangible, the 150 HP John Deere, Cummins and Yanmar all sound like Briggs and Stratton land mower engines, especially at idle. Those Detriots may leak a lot but they sure sound good.

And on overall dollars, YES, small diesels around 175 HP cost way, way less than the 1000 HP types that Tim is exploring.

Pete

[krush]

150hp? Stick in two induction motors with VFD drives and just get a big genset lol

[Pete]

No doubt, HOF is the place to look for those out of the box ideas.

Pete

[Boatsb]

Tim.

I had but may be able to find seatrial results of a 52c with 900+ Yanmars.

I don't believe it required structural changes.

[Tim Powell]

Tim.

I had but may be able to find seatrial results of a 52c with 900+ Yanmars.

I don't believe it required structural changes.

This was brought up last year by one of the sales staff at the cat dealer. They changed out DD with cats
went up quite a bit in hp and had some cracking of glass near or around the strangers where the motor mounts
were connected. I just did not need a issue so i was just being safe adding a bit of insurance.
I bet that was interesting hp and lite. If you append to find them it would be interesting.( for sure ) I do not know what to expect
or what the difference would be between the two engines. I know what the qsm11 will do but the cats no thoughts. But there was a lot of
talk with about 600 hp difference. No difference in instillation cost.

[Boatsb]

600 hp difference. I don't even have 600 hp total.

My boats no speed demon.

I'll look for them next week if I get internet back.

[Tim Powell]

600 hp difference. I don't even have 600 hp total.

My boats no speed demon.

I'll look for them next week if i get internet back.

thanks

[Fanfare]

There are so many things that require changing and adjusting in even a simple engine swap that it quickly becomes both more expensive and more complicated than one expected. I had Detroit Diesel in Jacksonville do in-shop complete rebuilds of my 8-71s in 1980. Everything was brought up to current specifications. The new gaskets really improved the oil leakages. Today my guess would be that these seals are even better. Unfortunately, after this rebuild the boat would no longer plane. My guess was that Hatteras had perhaps "adjusted" the original engines horsepower a bit.

Around 1993 I wrote Jack Hargrave about repowering. He advised putting in 6V-92TA engines, picking up 200 hp per side. Even with his recommendation I needed to use a marine engineer and a skilled DD mechanic to get this done. I think I was lucky to get the last of the old DD technology, with all of Roger Pensky's input with the result that my engines have been perfect to this day. Best of all, they neither use nor leak oil. While there are now lighter and more efficient engines available, I would still rebuild the DDs I have rather than go newer, especially because I am not looking for any more horsepower.

I would look seriously at having a real DD shop pull your engines and transmissions, bring these up to date, and enjoy them for the next 30 years. All these new engines are so complicated, mostly for emission reasons, not for longevity or lower costs of maintenance. Look around your dock. Are the engine repair trucks spending more time with the new boats or the old ones?

[Pascal]

I dont know... i put 3000 hours on a pair of 3412Es with nothing more than oil changes, a handful of impellers, zincs and a fuel cooler. When the boat sold with 5400 hours oil analysis came clean. We never even had to pull a turbo.

Yeah the modern engines are more complex but tolerance and design have improved drastically since post WWII

[krush]

These "modern" engines are hardly new. The m11 is nearly 25 yrs old.

My boat has "modern" 20 yr old c8.3 cummins. It'll run circles around a detroit boat, do it burning less fuel, do it longer (more hours before overhaul), and do it while not leaking oil all over. 1800rpm gives me 19 knots. WOT about 30 (2600-2700RPM).

[Pete]

It is hard to impress someone with speed that has been overtaken by a sailing catamaran. Now, no oil leaks, that is impressive.

Pete

[Tim Powell]

It is hard to impress someone with speed that has been overtaken by a sailing catamaran. Now, no oil leaks, that is impressive.

Pete

I agree Pete but when ocean yachts Eggharbers pass you when you are suppose to be running you just drop your head. Off shore fishing is much different than lazy riding. Eaven though I run the 892ti at about 2000 for sometime 2.5 hours straight they are tuff but do produce oil leaked. I fix as they come I have found making my own gaskets seem to last longer than store bought. From Nappa I purchase a 2x3 sheet of material it's brown or tan in color. Does a grate job. I could not stop the alternator from leaking until using home made gasket. I hate oil leaked also
Tim

[Boatsb]

Shut them down and they stop leaking.

I don't know the full dimensions of the 12.9 compared to the qsm11 but I have seen engine rooms with the qsm11 repower from 892's and it's night and day.

Horsepower aside serviceability is top on my list.

[Top Hatt Craig]

Shut them down and they stop leaking. I don't know the full dimensions of the 12.9 compared to the qsm11 but I have seen engine rooms with the qsm11 repower from 892's and it's night and day.Horsepower aside serviceability is top on my list. "Shut them down and they stop leaking" we certainly hope so, but in the short 16 months I've been visiting this site I've read TWO posts concerning pin holes in oil pans, and if we suffer this horrific failure it will be a dark, dark day on our boat. Couldn't agree more with your comment on serviceability.

[Cricket]

It's insane the amount of room around our 3406E's compared to the 8v92's and original 12v71's. As far as stringer strength I find it odd that there was an issue with that repower, unless there was a previous issue, or maybe it was the install. On ours the original construction drawing had steel in the top of the stringer between the layers of glass. The magnet didn't find any, must be aluminum then, drilled some holes and nothing. We added steel and then glassed over it, full length between ER bulkheads.

[Tim Powell]

It's insane the amount of room around our 3406E's compared to the 8v92's and original 12v71's. As far as stringer strength I find it odd that there was an issue with that repower, unless there was a previous issue, or maybe it was the install. On ours the original construction drawing had steel in the top of the stringer between the layers of glass. The magnet didn't find any, must be aluminum then, drilled some holes and nothing. We added steel and then glassed over it, full length between ER bulkheads.

actually the question came from Steve at gregory pool in wanchese. But his information came from the person who was going to do the install. I do not remember his name but he does the installs for Balis and gregory pool, when you see the bammers flying around the beach from Hatteras to Kill Devil he is the man at the wheel. He puts engines in on the side or flyes on the side i do not know which. But when John Balis reckomended him good enuff for me.

[Tim Powell]

Shut them down and they stop leaking.

I don't know the full dimensions of the 12.9 compared to the qsm11 but I have seen engine rooms with the qsm11 repower from 892's and it's night and day.

Horsepower aside serviceability is top on my list.

I have been in a 52c with qsm11 you can play ring around the roses or maybe spin the bottle. Plenty of room eaven with two generators.

[bigbill]

i was told that if you hang a picture of an 8v71 on your wall that oil will run down the wall???

[jim rosenthal]

That depends on whether it's a photo of an 8-71 that's full of oil, or one that's empty.

[q240z]

Run 'em long enough, and all of the oil on the inside of a Detroit will end up on the outside.:p

[Tim Powell]

Run 'em long enough, and all of the oil on the inside of a Detroit will end up on the outside.:p

You should see the engine room in some shrimp trawlers oil every where rust a plenty. But they just keep running some guys never shut them down they know how long it takes for the oil level to go down. They just pour 5 gallon of oil and keep going. I ask one trawler owner how many hours on his DD. His answer was do not know got them used but been running them for going on 12 years.They are tuff engines my buddy down the creek been through several cats, Them motors got medal in them none of that aluminum.
They smoke under a load when the bag is full but keep pulling. From the sound i can tell when a injector needs help. I change impallas once a year, What about heat exchangers do they clog. No they are outside the boat next to the keel. There is not a fancy travel lift at our mariner its a railway. Trawlers come there because of the support in pulling the wooden boats. also we are cheap.

[dastahl]

Pete, At least one 42 LRC re-powered with luggers 120-135hp if I recall. Also he loved them and
ran around the Bahamas and Florida. At least one 58 re-powered with small Cummins.
Skooch
58 LRC

[Texastailboard]

A good friend of mine did a repower with the qsm11 on a 43 convertible super awesome set up. Great program and decent prices. Tim you mentioned qsm11 in a 52c? I would love to have more room in my engine room, I am comfortable doing mechanic work but having more access makes for better maintenance..

[kflod]

Hi Pete,I own a 42 LRC with the same 4-53's as you have, and have also looked into repowering. I found my best option was the Volvo Penta D5a TA. http://www.volvopenta.com/marinecommercial/en-en/products/propulsion-mc/ranges/inboard-shaft-propulsion-mc/d5a-ta-118-kw/d5a-ta-118-kw.htmlThey are a perfect fit, got the power you need, you can use the original BW transmissions, shaft and propellers (perhaps increasing the pitch by 1") as wot is at 2300. These are actually Deutz engines and are also sold by Vetus as well. Real work horses, they are not common rails, and their bigger six cylinder siblings are sitting in my town's ferries, pushing 40k hours between MOH. My brother just bought a pair for repowering his GB 36. Good luck 😊