Mann D2840LE403 1050 HP engines question

[northshoreone]

I have a friend looking at purchasing a boat with these engines, 2003 model yr, I see in the post history here that there was some question about the failure of those engine's. Can anyone add to the comments about their quality good or bad of the model in that year? He is sea trialing it on Friday.
Thanks!

[saltshaker]

I have a friend looking at purchasing a boat with these engines, 2003 model yr, I see in the post history here that there was some question about the failure of those engine's. Can anyone add to the comments about their quality good or bad of the model in that year? He is sea trialing it on Friday.
Thanks!
I wouldn't own a boat with them. If you look at boats of this vintage with those engines you'll see many that have replaced or rebuilt them with only a few hundred hours. I looked at a 54 Vicem that had one replaced at 400 hours and the other rebuilt at 800 hours. Boat was about 6-7 years old at the time. A friend had them in a 2004 48 Viking that he bought new. He sold the boat when it was 4 years old and had less than 400 hours on it because he didn't want to own the boat without a warranty on the engines. Mechanics were on that boat often and she always smoked. Not sure what the specific issues were but catastrophic failures were all too common. I believe there's a lube problem where they get starved of oil and trash the engine. An internet search should turn up plenty.

[captddis]

I take care of a Viking with those engines. The current has not had any issues, however the prevous owner had the port side prop throw a blade. The engine block broke and some of the main bearings were in pieces in the bilge. It was 250,000.00 to build up a new block.
Tearing the salon apart and cutting the salon sole and puting it back together was another seperate bill.

I have seen DD's throw blades and all that was needed on them was a new prop.

rereading the post the engine I refer to is a D 2842 LE404 1300 hp

[Tinman]

That engine was used a lot because it had enough HP and fit in a low profile engine room, a lot smaller than 1271's. Nicknamed SMOH, make sure he gets a quote for the famous Man 1000 hr. service if they are due "before" surveying.

[motoryacht lover]

I have the 820's and have been very pleased over 9 years of ownership. The 1050's do not have as good a reputation. Also I think in and around 2003 MAN had some valve failure issues. There is a new valve. The 1000 hr service is approximately 16,000 which would include new rebuilt injectors. The 1050s would make me nervous. Also search Boat diesel and you will see your question asked many times.

[Glory]

I find it strange Mann doesn't think there injectors will last 2,000 hours. In other engines injectors last well beyond 20,000 hours, and sometimes beyond 30,000 hours.

Also Mann will not do an engine survey if the services are not up to date. That may place the seller of a boat and some prospective buyers in a tuff spot. A seller in a cash flow position, may not be able to swing the service. It is, in my opinion poor product support.

I'm not aware of any other manufacturer that has conditions places on preforming a survey or any other work

You wouldn't find Mann on anything in my engine rooms.

JM

[Avenger]

Most M.A.N.s are high performance engines. 1300s are compound turbocharged, with intercooling and aftercooling. Every component in them is highly stressed. I have turbochargers sitting here that are perfectly good except the exhaust housings are cracked from thermal stress. Even though they'll function just fine right now they're ticking time bombs.

While we don't usually get reports on service history of injectors it's not hard to believe that injector nozzles stuffed into cylinders that are seeing the kinds of temps that crack exhaust housings like that wouldn't last long either. They're subject to high opening pressures combined and high cylinder temperatures which combines to beat the life out of them. We hear rumors circulating that brand X nozzles eliminate smoking on M.A.N.s but the problems are also eliminated when we put a set of OE nozzles in them. The real problem is that they're just shot.

I'd doubt the valves or the pistons have an easier life.

This goes to the HP/cu. in. rule. Engines like that are for people with unlimited funding. Or to paraphrase Mad Max, "Speed is just a question of money. How fast can you afford to go?"

Also, 30K hours on any injectors, lightly loaded or not seems like a lot. They may spray and the cylinders may fire, but I'd doubt they're doing the combustion process, or engine life and efficiency any favors.

[johnjen50]

Love the new screen name btw. I think I saw your boat on the Vineyard last summer in OB. I didn't know that was you.

[Outfitter]

Those 6 chapters caparable to a Stephen King novel just made my starfish pucker.
Zak K.
Black Hat Affair

[Walter P]

So am I to assume that the reason Mann's are sometimes referred to as "Mann-grenades" has a basis in fact? Wow...the more I read the more I appreciate my Detroit's.

Walt

[Glory]

Most M.A.N.s are high performance engines. 1300s are compound turbocharged, with intercooling and aftercooling. Every component in them is highly stressed. I have turbochargers sitting here that are perfectly good except the exhaust housings are cracked from thermal stress. Even though they'll function just fine right now they're ticking time bombs.

While we don't usually get reports on service history of injectors it's not hard to believe that injector nozzles stuffed into cylinders that are seeing the kinds of temps that crack exhaust housings like that wouldn't last long either. They're subject to high opening pressures combined and high cylinder temperatures which combines to beat the life out of them. We hear rumors circulating that brand X nozzles eliminate smoking on M.A.N.s but the problems are also eliminated when we put a set of OE nozzles in them. The real problem is that they're just shot.

I'd doubt the valves or the pistons have an easier life.

This goes to the HP/cu. in. rule. Engines like that are for people with unlimited funding. Or to paraphrase Mad Max, "Speed is just a question of money. How fast can you afford to go?"

Also, 30K hours on any injectors, lightly loaded or not seems like a lot. They may spray and the cylinders may fire, but I'd doubt they're doing the combustion process, or engine life and efficiency any favors.

At 30,000 sure some wear is going to happened, Mann wants to replace the injectors at 1,000 hours, and at the next 1,000 hours. If the Mann model in question should be so lucky as to get to 30,000 hours, as engines like the series 60, C15, 3306 and others are able to achieve the maintenance cost would out pace the engines original price. To me that would be a message to stay away.

And just to be clear I have seen dozens of engines pass 30,000 hours, I wouldn't call call it a rule, but it happens all the time.

JM

[Avenger]

Love the new screen name btw. I think I saw your boat on the Vineyard last summer in OB. I didn't know that was you.

Thank you. I've been wanting to change it for a long time. And that wasn't me at the Vinyard.

JM, I'm not disputing that some engines will go 30K hours. I think the maintenance schedule recommended by CAT on D398 and 399s on generators was top end overhaul including turbos at 20K hours and complete rebuild at 40K. They knew exactly what the service life was and scheduled maintenance to avoid failures. I'm sure M.A.N. is doing the same thing. My point was that those high output M.A.N.s are so wrung out that you can't expect that kind of life out of the components. They're an expensive hot rod for rich kids to play with. I liken them to a top fuel dragster. Fast and powerful, but needs an overhaul after every pass. And let's not forget that the life expectancy of a 6-71 making 485HP is only a few thousand hours as well. Any engine can be hot rodded to an early grave.

And I still think the original set of injectors in a 30K hour DD are going to be way past their practical service life even in a low output application. That's not to say that it doesn't happen. I'm sure there's plenty of them out there chugging away. And probably controlling the mosquito population too.

[jim rosenthal]

I remember a post here a while back that commercial truck operations schedule overhauls by the number of gallons of fuel that an engine has used. It makes sense- horsepower comes from fuel, and if you are making a lot of horsepower in a short time, you are burning a lot of fuel.

From what you say, the ultimate sportfishing boat for power and speed would be an Ocean yacht with MAN engines...fasten your seat belt, both for the ride and the repair bills. Of course, you might crack the hull going that fast.

Personally, if I had a boat that big, I'd want Series 60s or Cats.

[Glory]

I didn't notice the handle change, nice.

"I liken them to a top fuel dragster. Fast and powerful, but needs an overhaul after every pass". Interesting observation, I guess I couldn't see it that way because I like things that last with out milking me.
My boating budget also will not allow it.

JM

[saltshaker]

So am I to assume that the reason Mann's are sometimes referred to as "Mann-grenades" has a basis in fact? Wow...the more I read the more I appreciate my Detroit's.

Walt

The MAN grenades nick name came from the mid to late '90s engines that had serious issues. Many problems caused major failures that required complete engine replacement. This was happening on engines that were only a few years old and with very low hours. Failures similar to what Dave mentioned where the engines literally self destructed were very common. MAN fixed most of those issues by the late 90's/early 00's. This particular engine is a new problem with many needing to be replaced. With the exception of this engine, most of the newer MANs are pretty reliable but IMO not very robust build wise. They give good service life providing you stay on top of all the maintenance and nothing fails. The failures have become less common but when they do fail, they often trash the block. The service schedule is extremely expensive and includes items that are typically done during a major such as new turbos, injectors, intercoolers, exhaust manifolds, heat exchangers etc. Be prepared when it's time to major them. Tim's cousin did majors on his and spent nearly $250K on a pair of 1300HP 2842LE404 on a 58 Viking. Prior to that he spent $180K on majors on a pair of 820HP D2840LXE in a 53 Viking. The 1000 hour service runs 16K-22K for the V10 and V12 depending on HP. That's every 1000 hours and some do it every 500 hours to keep the smoke down and prevent a failure. MAN requires you to do it every 2 years or 1K hours or you void the warranty.

[Tinman]

Tim's cousin did majors on his and spent nearly $250K on a pair of 1300HP 2842LE404 on a 58 Viking. Prior to that he spent $180K on majors on a pair of 820HP D2840LXE in a 53 Viking. The 1000 hour service runs 16K-22K for the V10 and V12 depending on HP. .

Those rebuild numbers are ridiculous, have to wonder which dealer was ripping them. In comparison a Cat mechanic just told me they were finishing up complete rebuilds on a pair of 3412's 1350hp with some gear work for $95K. I had to ask if that was per engine and he said it was for total job. Surprising with all the info available today, that buyers still get conned into buying boats with the older MAN's and MTU's.

[saltshaker]

Those rebuild numbers are ridiculous, have to wonder which dealer was ripping them. In comparison a Cat mechanic just told me they were finishing up complete rebuilds on a pair of 3412's 1350hp with some gear work for $95K. I had to ask if that was per engine and he said it was for total job. Surprising with all the info available today, that buyers still get conned into buying boats with the older MAN's and MTU's.
That's a very good price for a pair of 3412's. They are much cheaper to maintain and rebuild than the MANs. That price does seem low and I'd wonder if that was for a complete overhaul or a top end only overhaul. The majority of the time the Cats don't need bottom end work unless something went wrong or they have over 10K hours. The numbers I posted for the MANs were from a dealer and very much in line with others who've had the same work done. The old MTU's are just as bad if not worse. The newer MTUs are still pricey to rebuild but you rarely see that happening under 10K hours unless something failed.

[Avenger]

I didn't notice the handle change, nice.

"I liken them to a top fuel dragster. Fast and powerful, but needs an overhaul after every pass". Interesting observation, I guess I couldn't see it that way because I like things that last with out milking me.
My boating budget also will not allow it.

JM

Even if we hit the Powerball, I don't think either one of us would own toys like that. We're just not wired that way.

[Pascal]

Call a Mann dealer and get quotes for the routine service schedule. Then compare with cats.

Last big service we did on the 1400hp 3412Es on the boat I run was around $5k. That s for both engines...

Last night, around 1am I watched the hour meters tick thru 5000hours on the Cat digital displays while throwing sheets of water over the skylounge in the Norwest Channel. Love those Cats!

[captpl]

I've owned my re-powered 50c (man 2842 12cyl) for the past eleven seasons and was
the hired captain on her for 5 years before that. The 1000 hour service is not a huge deal and
shouldn't be a deal breaker, I've performed it with my kids helping. Parts for major breakdowns
on the other hand can get costly, but routine service is in line with other brands. The higher HP
10 cyl. MAN engines either ran great or blew up in 100 hrs. or sooner, if they're still running
(within temp. oil pres. etc.) they are most likely fine. I would make sure they had the upgraded
trapezoid rods installed and associated piston and head work complete. Short of that I love my
engines and wouldn't go back to "sloppy" alpine green Detroits. They used to be cheap to keep
up on, but even those parts are getting costly. You can own one with Detroits and cruise 15kt or
have the Mans and cruise 20kt and burn less fuel. With the old 8-92's we were a 20kt boat "in
the corner" fair wind and tide. With the Mans we cruise an honest 18+ and burn 32 gal/hr
combined. Each brand has it's cheering section and people who wouldn't use the engine blocks
for a mooring, I personally like Man diesel engines. FWIW

[motoryacht lover]

I am not going to defend MAN, only sharing my direct experience. I have not experienced any breakdowns in 9 years of ownership. The boat is run a fair amount. I had to buy an intercooler and the cooler alone was 8000. Probably will need the fuel pumps rebuilt in the next year or two and am told that will be 15,000 each. Going from memory displacement is around 1100 cubic inches, with 820hps the ratio is pretty good. In other words the 820s are not highly stressed. My pyro temp at cruise is around 700f. My cylinders were borscoped at around 1500 hrs and was told that they all still showed cross hatching. I don't have temperature creep like my old 375hp 6v71s. All of that being said I would prefer cats in my next boat but wouldn't run away from the right mans or mtus.