repower cost - can this be for real ???

[ohiohatteras]

In my continued quest to repower my 36C from gas to Cummins, I finally had somebody return a call! Cant tell you how many times nobody called back! However...I almost wish they wouldn't have called back! Here's the ball park pricing break down:

* Remove current gas engines and install Cummins 370 remans - $56,000 LABOR. Said it was going to be around 660 man hours! That's 2 guys working 40 hour weeks working on it for over 2 months straight!
* Cost of 2 reman 370's and 2 ZF trannys - $52,000

Total ballpark was $108,000 and didn't even discuss the generator?

So is this guy off his rocker? Or am I just suffering from sticker shock? This is the first and only time I've been given a ball park figure. I'm not independently wealth and able to do the project with an open checkbook and find out what the total is at the end. If this sounds legit....my quest to repower is now over!

[Boatsb]

Call the bird and have him bring it here. I did a 42c in about 110 hours no genny. Add in the cost of new fuel lines and larger intake seacocks and your still ahead.

[tom5518]

Scotty is right, but you may find it easier to unhook the flybridge and truck it down there.

It is hard to shop for good service on the Great Lakes. Have you called Shepler's in Mackinaw City? They won't be cheap, but they are professional and will take your request seriously.

[saltshaker]

Sounds pretty steep but don't know what he's doing for that. You can do it for far less depending on your wants and needs. You can get a price just for the R&R of the engines but you're probably going to want to do a lot more while you're in there. You may be able to find someone to do the R&R and you do the other work such as cleaning, prep and painting of the ER, soundproofing, fuel lines, exhaust etc. I don't know the price of the 370 remains but that too seems a bit high. I'd keep shopping.

[jim rosenthal]

I think it's high. Aren't the 370 remans about 18K each, or are my figures obsolete? I think you can do a lot better. It still won't be cheap, but that figure is so steep it sounds like he doesn't want to do it.

[saltshaker]

Not sure on current price of the remand but I thought they were around 19K each too.

[Pascal]

I was quoted $46k for the recon 220hp 6bt with new ZF so $52k for the370 sounds pretty good.

As to labor, this is the typical Bend Over And Take it so common in the industry and what is driving so many people out of boating, I just can t see how you could have 660 hours of labor even if they go overboard with every single detail. I wonder what is included in that quote.

[Glory]

It does sound like a lot of time. An itemize estimate may give a better idea of the time allocation. Seeing a previous
repower project completer by the vendor might also shed some light on the value, or lack of it.

Another estimate is likely good place to start.

JM

[jim rosenthal]

I think you would be better off to mail your boat to Scott and let him do it. We should start a poll. I vote for Scott.

[jim rosenthal]

I was quoted $46k for the recon 220hp 6bt with new ZF so $52k for the370 sounds pretty good.

As to labor, this is the typical Bend Over And Take it so common in the industry and what is driving so many people out of boating, I just can t see how you could have 660 hours of labor even if they go overboard with every single detail. I wonder what is included in that quote.

I think these ZFs are about 4K each, so that pretty much adds up.

[lumina]

Hi All,

+1 for Scott

[Boatsb]

I believe this is a 450c.

[SeaEric]

I got a "ballpark" price on re-power of my 41TC. Same 370 Cummins. We got to $80,000 without new trans as speculation was that my existing Twin Disc may work. That was 3 years ago. Best way to own a re-powered 36C is to buy one already done.

[captddis]

Just to compare. My 38 Bertram was repowered from gas to diesel. in 1991 two new 3208 Cats @ 375 HP, new MG 507a gears and new 8 KW Onan gen was 84,000 in 1991 dollars.

[rob71]

My 1971 DCMY was re powered by PO in 1998.
Replaced 8V53 s with Volvo TAMD 63 s twin disc , shafts and 5 blade props. $150 K.

[drburke]

Hey Todd,

I also vote for Scott, and still have the new ZF286 (upgrade) trans to sell you for a bargain price!

He can probably make the 7 deg. down angle work for you; what's 3 degrees among friends?

DAN

[bigbill]

120,000.00 to repower my 58yf in 2001 with 450 hp john deeres also new gears. installer got to keep the 8v71 ti and gears to sell or whatever he wanted

[Mike36c]

Having gone thru the re-power rodeo in 2003/2004 I can tell you the price of the engines/transmissions just gets you thru the gates, it's the while-your-at-it items that add up quick. This is by no means a complete list of items that may need attention.
1) exhaust (elbows, hose, possibly mufflers)
2) shafts/props/cutlass bearings
3) stuffing boxes/dripless
4) starter cables
5) possibly new battery switches and batteries
6) engine rails/beds
7) shiny new er paint
8) generator
9) new lumber (between engines, tables, etc.)
10) fuel hoses and filter set ups
11) er insulation fwd, aft, salon floor
Plus once the engine room is clean and pretty other items will really stick out like an old water heater, rusty A/C units, old er lighting, etc.
I'd have to dig up receipts but I remember my engines (330b new with TD transmissions) 9kw NL genny, and all of the above was right around $75K. This was parts only, no labor.

[Tim Powell]

Stand on the dock and ask your self what is it worth now and what is it worth when i finish.

I have been playing with the idea of repowering my 52. I have looked at a lot of options when i finish the boat may be worth the repower cost. Going to fish what i got.Just to old

[rsmith]

Yeah but you'll save a couple hundered dollars a year in fuel costs.

[jim rosenthal]

Reasons to repower:

-you want to go faster
-you would rather spend 80K on engines than 1K on fuel
-you want room in the engine areas for a wine cellar
-you are bored and want a project
-your fuel tanks are rotting from ethanol
-you want a new boat but love your old one too much to part with her
-you like shopping for boating gear, the bigger, the better
-your old engines are broken
-you mistakenly bought a boat without engines
-one of the engine manufacturers gave you a bag full of brochures at the boat show

[Mike36c]

I like Jim's theme.

More reasons to repower.

-You have $100K stashed the wife doesn't know about
-Your body is free of engine room bruises and tyrap cuts
-You don't own a calculator
-Your best buddy from high school works for Cummins
-You just won the lotto
-You have friends that will work till 2am in exchange for beer and pizza

While I probably wouldn't do another repower project I have absolutely enjoyed the last 10+ years with my reliable, non-stinky, shiny, fuel sipping engines.

[krush]

I guess it all depends on the goal. If existing engine(s) are blown up, then the repower cost justification changes a bit. Also, if one has owned the boat a long time and never desires to "upgrade".

Buying a repowered boat is almost always a better deal. But that's not always a realistic option.

In the 36-45' class, the truth is there really are fewer GOOD boats being made in that size range. Making an old boat newer may be a better option. Also, even a repower is cheaper than a couple years depreciation on a new boat.

[Tim Powell]

I guess it all depends on the goal. If existing engine(s) are blown up, then the repower cost justification changes a bit. Also, if one has owned the boat a long time and never desires to "upgrade".

Buying a repowered boat is almost always a better deal. But that's not always a realistic option.

In the 36-45' class, the truth is there really are fewer GOOD boats being made in that size range. Making an old boat newer may be a better option. Also, even a repower is cheaper than a couple years depreciation on a new boat.

If you can replace the boat or repower always a delima. I have found sell what you got and go shoping. Makes for a good choice. I totally agree with Krush.

[Bugsy]

I got three estimates for the re-power of a 43' Convertible including one from a yard near Algonac across from the Harbour Club. I was looking at Cummins 540C (mechanicals). The prices were in 2012 and were "all-in" including ZF transmissions and all bridge gauges; props etc. Approx $100,000 excluding value of my 692's.

If you sell your current boat----tailored to your needs and provided trusty service for 15 years---for let's say $80,000 and you then head out to the market for a newer boat with newer engines----what will you pay? My searches suggest somewhere north of $200,000. So---you're in for $120 and how many hours on those re-powered engines and what surprises await with that 10-15 year old hull and systems?
You re-power your known boat for $100,000 and add $20,000 "just because" and you have a LOT less issues both known/ yet to be discovered/ feared and you have ,no hours and new systems!!

If you boat 100 hours/year, you can go 15 years (or death, whichever first occurs) before you accumulate the hours already on that "re-powered boat".

$120 divided by 15----cost is $8000/yr amortized---and think of the enjoyment of Miami to Highbourne at 26 kts in one not too hard day compared to "chugging" across at 16.5 kts with a required stop at Chub after a longgggg day!

You're dead a long time---and it's only money!

[tom5518]

I guess it all depends on the goal. If existing engine(s) are blown up, then the repower cost justification changes a bit. Also, if one has owned the boat a long time and never desires to "upgrade".

Buying a repowered boat is almost always a better deal. But that's not always a realistic option.

In the 36-45' class, the truth is there really are fewer GOOD boats being made in that size range. Making an old boat newer may be a better option. Also, even a repower is cheaper than a couple years depreciation on a new boat.

Great observation Krush, it puts the cost of a repower in perspective. What amazes me is people line up to spend a million $$$$$ on these no-name weird-ass Nike shoe diesel powered 40 footers.

[Bugsy]

OP.....

The yard at Harson's Island, MI just off the St.Clair River is W.C. Beardslee Inc.

[rsmith]

I've seen plenty of botched repowers over the years. First off the boats designers never planned for what ever your going to do. Whether it's more power weight difference whatever your now a test pilot or more realistically a guinnea pig. Yeah sure it may run 30kts or burn 10% less fuel. But what's it like surfing down the face of 12footers trying to run a inlet? We know these Hatts with the iron as delivered can take a licking.
I would at least stick with proven repowers. Or buy a repower that you can run and make sure the thing isn't some squirley POS.
Me I'll keep my Dependable DDA's they've never thrown a computer code. Or had a EMM Or ECU go bad.

[Mike36c]

I've seen plenty of botched repowers over the years. First off the boats designers never planned for what ever your going to do. Whether it's more power weight difference whatever your now a test pilot or more realistically a guinnea pig. Yeah sure it may run 30kts or burn 10% less fuel. But what's it like surfing down the face of 12footers trying to run a inlet? We know these Hatts with the iron as delivered can take a licking.
I would at least stick with proven repowers. Or buy a repower that you can run and make sure the thing isn't some squirley POS.
Me I'll keep my Dependable DDA's they've never thrown a computer code. Or had a EMM Or ECU go bad.

When I bought my mechanical 6BTA's I was offered a pair of QSB's for the same price as they needed a 'test bed' for this new engine. I said no thanks, although all of the folks I know running current Q engines love them.

[jim rosenthal]

Here's another reason:

-your friends are egging you on, since it's your money and not theirs....:)


Seriously, I think there are a lot of good points here. Repowering an old boat to make it go fast may not be a good idea. These hulls were designed for certain speed and power calculations- not to run with 80% of the boat out of the water. In the case of the first series 36C, I think about thirty knots is plenty- sure, they have been built to go faster than that, but I don't know how good an idea that is.

If you're going to go to the expense and difficulty of a repower, you ought to start with a boat that was well made to begin with. Even better if you already own one. Which leads you to a Hatteras, pretty much.

[saltshaker]

A repower doesn't make sense financially but neither does buying a boat in the first place. Some boats do make more sense than others based on what your options might be. A 36C is one of those boats and if you have one you like repowering her may make sense. Just make sure it's what you want and plan to keep for a long time. You do see plenty out there that end up for sale 2-3 years after a major refit. Those are the ones taking the biggest hit with the smallest return. If you can find a good one that someone else has already done then you might be much better off, providing it's to your liking and well done.

[ohiohatteras]

We've had the 36C for 20 years now......Love the boat and don't want to buy somebody else's headache ever again! We spent tons of money upgrading just about everything else in/on the boat. When we did the upgrades, we did them without the thought of getting money back....We did them cuz that's what we wanted.
However.....the repower at $108k is just too far out of reach for me. Period. Guess I'll just keep milking my ole Marine Powers along till they croak.....then bore & stroke them to 496's with about 100 more horsies......I'll get some more speed out of the old girl with good old fashioned RPM's!

[rsmith]

The 34-36 hull has always made a great repower. Back in the 60's Rybovich threw 534 Seamasters in them. In 71 my dad re powered our 34 with 3160 cats. Cost was $13500 turn key. To put it into perspective the Lincoln Mk111 was the first car to break the $10k barrier at the time and was the highest priced American car. So $70k today might not be far off adjusted for inflation. The diesels made a huge improvement in the ride and handling of the boat. The faster speed put us ahead of the spray and dryed the boat up.less pounding and range enough to allow us to fish and stay longer at the offshore canyons. Plus diesel was half the price of gas.
But the guy that repowered the boat used the design and engineering that was used in the 36 3160cat installation at the time so it was a pretty much given how the final outcome would be. Our 34 had no gen ac or even stove, so it was much lighter than the 36 and could pass a 36 like it was standing still. Weight makes a huge difference in speed.

[drburke]

Todd,


....Love the boat and don't want to buy somebody else's headache ever again! We spent tons of money upgrading just about everything else in/on the boat.

I know your desire! The transmissions I have were for my 34C repower, and I did a price workaround by acquiring low hour stationary 6BTs, since sold to Tony Athens when I lost the boat. (Someone will say that is a difficult conversion to marine, but Tony was in the loop on the project. )

I really wanted the repower even if it didn't make financial sense! Keep your ear to the ground for deals, and I like the option of using Scott.

Best,
DAN

[Boatsb]

bring her down for the winter. Its not like your using the boat up there anyway.

[Tim Powell]

bring her down for the winter. Its not like your using the boat up there anyway.

ok bight this one off I will bring you mine you put the cats in it . Shoot me a price, See how you stack up to Bailis and Jarret bay. Ouch

[Walter P]

This is getting more interesting by the hour....lol

[Boatsb]

ok bight this one off I will bring you mine you put the cats in it . Shoot me a price, See how you stack up to Bailis and Jarret bay. Ouch

I do nice work but I don't think I can match those other yards in billing. If you want I can try to charge more but it's tough.

Tim didn't you just do majors on the 8v92's? After all that it's almost a shame to pull them out. Almost.

I've seen the difference in space in a 53c with QSM11S. What size are your cats? What Hp? I have seatrial info on a 52c with 900hp yanmars somewhere too.

[Tim Powell]

I do nice work but I don't think I can match those other yards in billing. If you want I can try to charge more but it's tough.

Tim didn't you just do majors on the 8v92's? After all that it's almost a shame to pull them out. Almost.

I've seen the difference in space in a 53c with QSM11S. What size are your cats? What Hp? I have seatrial info on a 52c with 900hp yanmars somewhere too.

After talking to a couple of guys the QSM11 are having manifold bolt problems.I do not know the extent of the problem but it is about a 6000 $ fix thats all i know,
Scott i was just picking a fight. Yes i did do my 892 last fall about a year ago. Western Branch in Beauford did them. The total bill came to about 45000$ This year fishing up north Hatteras And Pirates cove I was with the slower boats. I have come to except it. I am not going to spend 300000$ to gain 8 to 12 knots at my age i can already begin to see the end of my fishing days.With one small stroke under my belt My wife pretends to worry about me being so far off shore.
I had a pair of cats 3406 but sold them i did not have the gear or the electronic controls.
FYI C18 with gold warenty installed were going to be about 320000. We estimated a 30 to 32 knot cruse.
I have been on POLE PUSHER a 53 Tom Slane did it was listed here at one time . It was delivered to the mariner just beside where i keep my boat. Room Room a plenty in the engine room. I have been on a 52 with QSM11 same room a plenty.

[Boatsb]

I'm stuck between the 52 and 53. Each one has good and bad. So while I sort it out I'll run my old 41c and enjoy life.

[krush]

Tim, just buy this.....cats already there: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/Hatteras-Convertible-SF-2425811/New-Orleans/LA/United-States#.Vh7xXn0Ylvd

[Tim Powell]

Tim, just buy this.....cats already there: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/Hatteras-Convertible-SF-2425811/New-Orleans/LA/United-States#.Vh7xXn0Ylvd

come take mine home i will go get it. if i did a repower thats about what i would have in mine see the problem?

[capttonyf]

come take mine home i will go get it. if i did a repower thats about what i would have in mine see the problem?

There are few really nice CAT Powered Quality 54 & 55 ft Hatteras Convertibles that can be bought in the $400K Range. The 4th boat I posted is a 1997 and I beleive it's the boat that was heavily mentioned and advertised in a few magazines at the time. If it is the boat, it's a Hatteras Tournament Edition. They only built a few this way from the factory. Notice the differences from the standard boat. Low Profile Bow rail, Minimal external fasteners and rails to give it that Clean Custom look, Single Lever Helm Pod, Rear Bridge Extension, Frameless windows, and forward bunk room with 3rd head as opposed to an Island Queen. I remember her when she was "New" and cutting edge at that time for Hatteras. Sweet Looking Boat even by todays standards.

Tony

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Hatteras-Sportfish-2817788/Key-Largo/FL/United-States#.Vh_APexVhHw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Hatteras-Sportfish-2890796/North-Palm-Beach/FL/United-States#.Vh_ArexVhHw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/Hatteras-Sport-Fisherman-2879561/Ft.-Lauderdale/FL/United-States#.Vh_BFOxVhHw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Hatteras-Sportfish-2877651/Orange-Beach/AL/United-States#.Vh_BPuxVhHw

[Tim Powell]

There are few really nice CAT Powered Quality 54 & 55 ft Hatteras Convertibles that can be bought in the $400K Range. The 4th boat I posted is a 1997 and I beleive it's the boat that was heavily mentioned and advertised in a few magazines at the time. If it is the boat, it's a Hatteras Tournament Edition. They only built a few this way from the factory. Notice the differences from the standard boat. Low Profile Bow rail, Minimal external fasteners and rails to give it that Clean Custom look, Single Lever Helm Pod, Rear Bridge Extension, Frameless windows, and forward bunk room with 3rd head as opposed to an Island Queen. I remember her when she was "New" and cutting edge at that time for Hatteras. Sweet Looking Boat even by todays standards.

Tony

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Hatteras-Sportfish-2817788/Key-Largo/FL/United-States#.Vh_APexVhHw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Hatteras-Sportfish-2890796/North-Palm-Beach/FL/United-States#.Vh_ArexVhHw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1996/Hatteras-Sport-Fisherman-2879561/Ft.-Lauderdale/FL/United-States#.Vh_BFOxVhHw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Hatteras-Sportfish-2877651/Orange-Beach/AL/United-States#.Vh_BPuxVhHw
As i told Jack The 54 And 55 are big boats . Every thing about them is expensive my yearely budget would be shot . I reframe from looking because when i do my mine set changes.Fishing here in the carolinas when you get to a 18 foot beam slips get scarce.

[ohiohatteras]

It amazes me how posts get hijacked and can take such a u-turn......I asked if $100k for a repower on my 36C was a lot and now the post is talking about buying a 55!
Somehow I don't see the similarities.......??????

[saltshaker]

It amazes me how posts get hijacked and can take such a u-turn......I asked if $100k for a repower on my 36C was a lot and now the post is talking about buying a 55!
Somehow I don't see the similarities.......??????things have a way of wandering off but you did get a lot of good responses from those who've done a similar boat with similar engine. I think the bottom line is $100k is high for just the power and swap out but not too high for a complete repower with generator and other upgrades. You need to get a breakdown of what that labor estimate included as it seems extremely high if it's only for the engine work.

[Boatsb]

things have a way of wandering off but you did get a lot of good responses from those who've done a similar boat with similar engine. I think the bottom line is $100k is high for just the power and swap out but not too high for a complete repower with generator and other upgrades. You need to get a breakdown of what that labor estimate included as it seems extremely high if it's only for the engine work.

You probably need to remove the aft bulkhead.
Then remove the original engines.
Rewire the systems that ran with the original engine harnesses that won't be part of the new ones.
Pull the seacocks and strainers.
Install larger seacocks and strainers.
Pull back and check the exhaust. Replace where necessary.
Pull the shafts and have them checked for stress and true.
While your at it replace cutlass bearings and reinstall shafts.
Prep and paint engine areas. Rough out mount locations and angles.
Run new engine harnesses.
Check control cable routing.
Upgrade fuel system to include returns.

Then the work starts .

;)

It can be $20k or more depending on parts. Not 50+

[jim rosenthal]

Scott, I think all the 36Cs had returns roughed in on the tanks, so they just needed to be hooked up. At least mine did, because she was originally a gas boat and then I changed her to diesel. All of those boats also had two 8D battery cases, and 1.5" shafts etc- all the running gear was the same from the stern tube and shaft log outwards- just the wheels were smaller for gas boats.

I stupidly took one of the 8D cases out. I wish I had it back. Each 8D case holds three Group 24s, set in sideways- very convenient. If anyone has an old 8D Hatteras case in usable condition, let me know, I'd like to have it.

We've established long ago that repowers don't make economic sense. The only boat to repower is one that you already love and want to keep. From that standpoint, given what a comfortable and beautiful boat a series I 36 is, it does make sense to repower one- you may have to keep her for a long time, but you WILL get your investment back out in pleasure and pride of ownership. I have had mine for nearly 25 years. If I had bought her eve n earlier, I would have been spared the ownership of at least one boat I would cheerfully have NOT owned. In the unlikely event of my ever owning a larger boat, it will be a Hatteras.

Whatever you decide to do, if you repower your 36, take a lot of photos so we can vicariously enjoy the experience along with you.

[rsmith]

it amazes me how posts get hijacked and can take such a u-turn......i asked if $100k for a repower on my 36c was a lot and now the post is talking about buying a 55!
Somehow i don't see the similarities.......??????

quick! Someone call the internet police!

[Freeebird]

We've had the 36C for 20 years now......Love the boat and don't want to buy somebody else's headache ever again! We spent tons of money upgrading just about everything else in/on the boat. When we did the upgrades, we did them without the thought of getting money back....We did them cuz that's what we wanted.
However.....the repower at $108k is just too far out of reach for me. Period. Guess I'll just keep milking my ole Marine Powers along till they croak.....then bore & stroke them to 496's with about 100 more horsies......I'll get some more speed out of the old girl with good old fashioned RPM's!


It amazes me how posts get hijacked and can take such a u-turn......I asked if $100k for a repower on my 36C was a lot and now the post is talking about buying a 55!
Somehow I don't see the similarities.......??????


quick! Someone call the internet police!Now that wasn't very helpful in answering his question. Lemme see if I can help.

First, you asked about a quote for a repower and decided it wasn't worth doing. Then tIM, who has been talking about a repower too, came into the picture since this thread was about repowering, and got some advice too. I'm happy with my engines, so that's all I have to say about that. Hope this helps. :)

[pizzazsdaddy]

Here's a thought. Forget the new diesels and simply repower with New Gas for half the price...with the same warranty???

[Boatsb]

There's a though since it's all the same if you never leave the dock.
Why not remove the engines and add storage?

[krush]

Just put an outboard on the back! The new 4strokes sip fuel and are quiet!

[saltshaker]

Here's a thought. Forget the new diesels and simply repower with New Gas for half the price...with the same warranty???
He's been shopping this and considering it for a while now. The repower isn't just because he needs new engines but because he wants to upgrade his existing boat. Huge difference between gas engines and diesels in the 350-400hp range.

[Boatsb]

A little creative DIY.