Detroit 12V71 TI vs 12V71 TA ? Engine surveyor recommends against the TI... why ?

[Milacron]

I understand the basic concept of turbo inter cooled and after cooled but why would this marine engine surveyor think the TA turbo was better on an older (1985 to 1993 in this case) Detroit 12V71T ? Is it that the TI model is cooled by salt water but the TA is cooled by fresh water ? ... Or ?

[captddis]

Not to be smart but why not ask the surveyor?
My thoughts the TA is the latest version and it has jacket
The water cooled turbos and jacket cooled aftercooler as well as bypass blowers. There are also boost coolers. The down side is the blowers have to be removed to clean the Aftercoolers .

The TI has sea water intercoolers and dry turbos. They are also cheaper to service and the intercoolers are good for many years, but if they fail it can be catastrophic. The coolers usually are good for 20 ++ years.

[Bayside Bert54]

I have the 12V71TI engines and they are fine. It's all about who is working on them.

[Milacron]

Not to be smart but why not ask the surveyor?
Not to be smart but shouldn't it be obvious there is a reason I didn't ask the surveyor, otherwise I wouldn't be posting this in the first place ? So now I'm forced to waste time explaining the reason. Which is, the guy had already gone way beyond the call of duty explaining this 'n that, I had yet to hire him, so all his advice from his perspective might end up being for free, the TI vs TA was toward the end of the discussion and he simply had to get back to work.

And I will call him back tomorrow and ask but seeing as I have no way to know if he is a Detroit turbo genius or not, it would still be good to get other opinions on the matter here and elsewhere.

[saltshaker]

When you mentioned a statement that a surveyor told you, most would assume it's from a survey you commissioned. Dave will have more first hand knowledge as he works on many boats with them. The 1271s are very reliable in most configurations so I wouldn't shy away from one unless it was in poor condition or poorly maintained. The TAs are good engines but like most Detroits there are some that are pushed to high in HP. You shouldn't have an issues with those you'd find in a MY but some of the early '90s SF had high HP 1271.

[Milacron]

When you mentioned a statement that a surveyor told you, most would assume it's from a survey you commissioned. I hear ya, but in this case the surveyor was so negative about the TI version I doubt there would have been a survey in the first place as I would have been discouraged from even attempting to buy the boat ! I'll call him tomorrow to try and pin him done with more details... and hope he's not busy and in a good mood ! :cool:

[saltshaker]

I hear ya, but in this case the surveyor was so negative about the TI version I doubt there would have been a survey in the first place as I would have been discouraged from even attempting to buy the boat ! I'll call him tomorrow to try and pin him done with more details... and hope he's not busy and in a good mood ! :cool:
The 650HP 12V71TIs that are in many Hatts will run a long time between majors. Reliability is similar to the 12V71Ns. Not sure why he is so negative about the TIs unless you have your models confused. The high HP TAs and the early DDECs can suffer from short service intervals. What boats are you considering with these engines? 12V71s won't be in any 53-58 Hatts and unless you're looking at some newer big MYs most of the 60-65ft older MYs will have the lower HP 12V71TIs

[Milacron]

The 650HP 12V71TIs that are in many Hatts will run a long time between majors. Reliability is similar to the 12V71Ns. Not sure why he is so negative about the TIs unless you have your models confused. The high HP TAs and the early DDECs can suffer from short service intervals. What boats are you considering with these engines? 12V71s won't be in any 53-58 Hatts and unless you're looking at some newer big MYs most of the 60-65ft older MYs will have the lower HP 12V71TIs Yeah I guess that was a little confusing since I mentioned earlier looking for a Hatteras no larger than 58 feet. But in this case I was discussing a 1992 Viking 63 MY. And just yesterday was inspired to expand my search to a larger Hatteras that had 12V71TI's. Maybe before this is over I'll end up wanting info on a Feadship 150 :eek:

[captddis]

Not to be smart but shouldn't it be obvious there is a reason I didn't ask the surveyor, otherwise I wouldn't be posting this in the first place ? So now I'm forced to waste time explaining the reason. Which is, the guy had already gone way beyond the call of duty explaining this 'n that, I had yet to hire him, so all his advice from his perspective might end up being for free, the TI vs TA was toward the end of the discussion and he simply had to get back to work.

And I will call him back tomorrow and ask but seeing as I have no way to know if he is a Detroit turbo genius or not, it would still be good to get other opinions on the matter here and elsewhere.



I am so sorry I wasted your time. I won't do it again.

[kelpy]

I did not think that the 71 series engines had after coolers under the blowers like the 92 series engines do. You learn something new every day.

[Milacron]

I did not think that the 71 series engines had after coolers under the blowers like the 92 series engines do. You learn something new every day. Well to be honest I'm going by the brokers listing info on Yachtworld so it's always possible the "A" was a misprint or flat out wrong....but at least one 1992 Viking out there is listed with 12V71TA's

[saltshaker]

I did not think that the 71 series engines had after coolers under the blowers like the 92 series engines do. You learn something new every day. Dave stated the differences pretty clearly. I believe all the 875HP and 900HP 12V71s are TAs. Pretty sure all the 12V71DDECs are also TAs.

[Milacron]

Called the surveyor back to further clarify the TI vs TA issue. He was on a survey job all day so when he called me back at 6:30 he was dog tired and in no mood to talk much....but from what I could gather the intercooler is cooled by salt water and if that cooler ever cracks the salt water can run into the engine ! In fact if it has already cracked they can detect the salt in the engine oil sample.

The TA is cooled by fresh water...he might have said salt water cooled the fresh water, like a jacket around the fresh water pipe... can't remember...but regardless, the TA cooler is way less likely to get corroded and therefore way less likely to get a crack in it.

Now, I've never read any of this anywhere else...so you guys tell me if this guy is exaggerating the TI dangers or if what he says sounds plausable. He tells me he is considering refusing to do engine surveys on "old Hatteras's" in the future as he's sick of pronouncing the Detroit engine ok only to have the buyer call up complaining a month or two later when his TI cooler breaks thru !

[krush]

Now, I've never read any of this anywhere else...

You've read of it here, a couple days ago (and few posts above this one).

[saltshaker]

Somewhat accurate but seems a bit exaggerated. There are plenty of 12V71TIs out there running strong for decades. I agree the setup of the TA is preferable but the TAs are also much higher HP and suffer from shorter service life. Most of the boats you'll be looking at won't have the TAs unless you are increasing your budget and/or switching brands. Most Hatts will switch to 12V92TAs in the later years and when higher HP was called for.

[Milacron]

Somewhat accurate but seems a bit exaggerated. There are plenty of 12V71TIs out there running strong for decades. I agree the setup of the TA is preferable but the TAs are also much higher HP and suffer from shorter service life. Most of the boats you'll be looking at won't have the TAs unless you are increasing your budget and/or switching brands. Most Hatts will switch to 12V92TAs in the later years and when higher HP was called for.Guess that's another point in the favor of a GL boat...no salt in the TI cooler. Wonder what one might do as a pre emptive strike when buying, say a 1984 Hatteras 58 with TI's....replace the TI cooler portion ?

[saltshaker]

Guess that's another point in the favor of a GL boat...no salt in the TI cooler. Wonder what one might do as a pre emptive strike when buying, say a 1984 Hatteras 58 with TI's....replace the TI cooler portion ?
If age and condition is unknown I'd most likely do that. I'm no mechanic but I do believe they can be accurately inspected once removed. Dave mentioned them lasting 20+ years so replacing them once might be all you'll ever need. I've only owned TAs so my first hand experience with a TI is 0.

[luckydave215]

Dave stated the differences pretty clearly. I believe all the 875HP and 900HP 12V71s are TAs. Pretty sure all the 12V71DDECs are also TAs.
Interesting, My '79 boat has 12V71TIs (raw water intercoolers on top of the blowers) at 1000 hp. I compensate for this stupid setup by never running them on the pins.
Who knows what foolish options some may have ordered from the factory?

[saltshaker]

What was done to yours to get the extra HP out of them? Did they add bypass blowers? I believe the 825HP 12V71TI was the biggest option in that boat but that was for the later models. I'd imagine you must run 24-25kts on the pins and cruise in the 20kt range? Never seen a 12V71TI cranked up that high.

[luckydave215]

1292 turbos, and huge injectors as far as I know, I haven't had to take them apart (yet).
WOT with my custom ZF props is about 26 kts depending on load, fast cruise (1950~2000) is 20kts.
Most of the time I run her at 1050 rpm (11 kts) for engine longevity and fuel burn. 100gph and short engine life gets expensive quick...

[luckydave215]

BTW, talking with Roger Wetherington about an electrical question he remembered the boat ("built her for some crazy California speed demon").
He said they made two like her and they were the fastest examples of that hull to come out of the factory when they ran them on the river behind the plant.
"Like her" meant the stupid engines, open bridge, no stabilizers, half tower, so she's a good bit lighter than most of them.

[saltshaker]

26kts is fast for a 60C series I. How many hours SMOH?

[luckydave215]

26kts is fast for a 60C series I. How many hours SMOH?
1950 hrs on the current in-frame. I got to know the original owner, and he never ran her over 1100 rpm, 900 rpm was more like most of the time. His comment during sea trial was that they hadn't been run that hard....ever.
He got 7000 hrs TBO.
They looked great during survey with the cross hatch still there all over the bores and still run like new today, they snap right to life with no smoke even when it's 40 degrees, and no block heaters are fitted.
Of course they could explode tomorrow.......

[saltshaker]

1950 hrs on the current in-frame. I got to know the original owner, and he never ran her over 1100 rpm, 900 rpm was more like most of the time. His comment during sea trial was that they hadn't been run that hard....ever.
He got 7000 hrs TBO.
They looked great during survey with the cross hatch still there all over the bores and still run like new today, they snap right to life with no smoke even when it's 40 degrees, and no block heaters are fitted.
Of course they could explode tomorrow.......
Amazing he would custom order the boat for speed and then run hull speed. I doubt they explode on you. High HP Detroits can run long when cared for and when they are regularly checked and serviced. Most of the short service life issues or catastrophic failures are from poor maintenance or a part/system failure that took out the whole engine. Given the way you care for yours I doubt that will ever happen. There's a 65C in TX with 1450HP 16V92TAs. Owner and captain will tell you they only run her at WOT, idle or trolling speeds. Although the engines were tired when they rebuilt them last year, they had over 6000 hours on them. Even then they still ran fairly well.

[capttonyf]

Amazing he would custom order the boat for speed and then run hull speed. I doubt they explode on you. High HP Detroits can run long when cared for and when they are regularly checked and serviced. Most of the short service life issues or catastrophic failures are from poor maintenance or a part/system failure that took out the whole engine. Given the way you care for yours I doubt that will ever happen. There's a 65C in TX with 1450HP 16V92TAs. Owner and captain will tell you they only run her at WOT, idle or trolling speeds. Although the engines were tired when they rebuilt them last year, they had over 6000 hours on them. Even then they still ran fairly well.

Jack,

Open Bridge, "Tico Time"?


Tony

[saltshaker]

Jack,

Open Bridge, "Tico Time"?


Tony

You got it.

[Jumpinthewaterisfine]

Did you sell your house yet?

[capttonyf]

You got it.

Jack,

I ran and cared for it ACCIDENTLY for a few months while it was in Ft. Lauderdale back in 2006/2007. It was a nice boat but had a lot of hours like you mentioned.

It was a really wierd situation, I was trying to put a deal together on it. I can't remember the Salesmans name but it was a small no name brokerage who had like an open listing. Somehow in the middle of the offers going back and forth he called me and asked me if I'd move the boat from behind his house because he was being evicted or something. So I moved it behind a friend of mines house who was the one actually trying to buy it. Then the Broker/Salesman vanished and I never heard from him again.

I was able to reach out to the owner and his personal assistant to let him know where the boat was and that it was safe. I also continued to try to put a deal together and even get the listing but we never could bridge the gap. The offer was higher back in 2006 than the asking price now. From what I remember the owner was very difficult to reach and didn't really seemed to concerned a complete stranger was caring for is boat. I wasn't doing it for the money which is a good thing because I never got paid. I just was trying to help because the Broker went AWOL. Then one day I went to check on the boat and it was gone. I called the owners assistant and she said sorry I thought you knew but the Captain picked it up this morning to move it back to TX and that was the last I ever heard about it.

Funny thing is the original Broker/Salesman played Big shot, taliking about he's a pilot and his plane and his cars and all this nonesense to one day beg me to move the boat for him. I think he was one of the issues on a deal not coming together but not sure. Even after reaching the owner directly it was still a dead end trying to put a deal together. Just wierd.

Boat was nice though.

Tony

[saltshaker]

Like I posted in another thread, it's amazing how much first hand info the members here have about many of the boats out there. Here I am in NJ with a slight mention of a boat in TX and a member in FL knows the boat.

[capttonyf]

Like I posted in another thread, it's amazing how much first hand info the members here have about many of the boats out there. Here I am in NJ with a slight mention of a boat in TX and a member in FL knows the boat.

Like I've mentioned before. Yachts are like women in many ways, some even develops reputations. I've heard before boats are named after women often it your constantly reminded of how to treat a lady. If you treat her well and take care of her she will do the same. All these boats have a history and your right, it's amazing how many of is know these boats first hand and I've spent most of my time the last 8 years in Pittsburgh because it's a better invite meant for my children. Florida is now for vacation and occasional boat industry business.

Tony

[capttonyf]

Sorry spell check on my phone messed that last post all up

Tony

[drburke]

You can now buy the t-shirt :-)

DAN