What do you know about Broward?

[davidwigler]

Not that I'm looking but this looks like a heck of a buy.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Broward-Flybridge-Motor-Yacht-2147475/Longboat-Key-Key-West/FL/United-States#.UlX5w569KSM

[dsharp]

35 year old aluminum in salt water makes me nervous. Very nice looking boat though.

[rsmith]

Look like "Evel Eye" Evel knievels old boat

[fissioneng]

I like this Hatt better. Used to be on our dock. Beautiful extension, immaculate last time I was on it.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Hatteras-Motor-Yacht-2447414/Ocean-Reef-Club%2C-Key-Largo/FL/United-States#.UlbiVr7D-Uk

[pizzazsdaddy]

BROWARD BUYER BEWARE!
In the brokerage business we used to refer to Broward's as the "Aluminum Bayliner"! I'm not familiar with this one. She looks real "correct" in the photos. An added plus is the pilothouse being on the same level as the main salon. However, even IF you start with a good one, the maintenance and ownership costs are at least DOUBLE that of a comparable Hatteras.

A close friend of mine owned a real nice later model Broward. It ate him alive! And he can afford it! Words can not describe how happy he is with his current Hatteras.

[davidwigler]

Ok I'll admit my ignorance but other than major electrolysis in the hull how could maintenance possibly be so different than a comparable size Hatt? Once you have two big Detroits and a generator or two, ...

[Boatsb]

paint on aluminum is not as long lasting as fiberglass and when it goes bad its serious.

If she is in good shape there is nothing to be afraid of.

[Freeebird]

I would think maintenance would be the same IF the boat were kept in freshwater. Lots of old Marinette's around here as proof of that.

[jim rosenthal]

I like this Hatt better. Used to be on our dock. Beautiful extension, immaculate last time I was on it.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Hatteras-Motor-Yacht-2447414/Ocean-Reef-Club%2C-Key-Largo/FL/United-States#.UlbiVr7D-Uk

Nice boat!! ANd it has 71 series DDs.

I don't have a closet that big in my house, let alone my boat. Wow.

[34Hatt]

I would think maintenance would be the same IF the boat were kept in freshwater. Lots of old Marinette's around here as proof of that.


Yeah but who would take a 76 ft boat from the Keys with endless cruising choices and take it up and land lock it :p


Oh yeah I forgot never mind ;)

[jim rosenthal]

Ah, the first Bird call of the day... it must be morning......

[davidwigler]

Yeah but who would take a 76 ft boat from the Keys with endless cruising choices and take it up and land lock it :p


Oh yeah I forgot never mind ;)

I see your point. Cruising to Prater Flats or Sailboat Cove or Sunset Cove is not the same. Some day I do hope to get some blue water experience. It's not bad a bad life, though.

[Freeebird]

Yeah but who would take a 76 ft boat from the Keys with endless cruising choices and take it up and land lock it :p


Oh yeah I forgot never mind ;)Well, simple logic would dictate that if one could cruise from The Keys to a given point aboard a 76' boat, one would certainly be able to cruise back. One of many endless cruising points we have here in Tennessee is The Keys. Then again, one has to have the ability to grasp the obvious.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Never mind. :)

Tweet, tweet... that was for Dr. Jim. :)

[saltshaker]

Well, simple logic would dictate that if one could cruise from The Keys to a given point aboard a 76' boat, one would certainly be able to cruise back. One of many endless cruising points we have here in Tennessee is The Keys. Then again, one has to have the ability to grasp the obvious.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Never mind. :)

Tweet, tweet... that was for Dr. Jim. :)
Are you raising a "finger" to this?

[Freeebird]

Actually, I'm raising two as I can't help it. :)

[pizzazsdaddy]

Just spoke to a friend of mine who was aboard "BRAT" a year ago. He says the boat was a "piece of crap with all the usual Broward Issues". It's not just the aluminum hull, it's the whole aluminum structure, which has been subjected to Florida Sun, Salt, AND Humidity. It's the salt and humidity in every nook and cranny that combine to create a dance unto themselves. He says aluminum boat maintenance down here isn't double...it's triple the cost of his current Hatteras. TRIPLE! And that's from experience.

[davidwigler]

Is this a brand issue or do Burger yachts have the same reputation? Hargrave designed many of them.

[Fanfare]

Burgers are not built to the same price point as Browards were. Burger is absolutely at the top tier of yachts. But having had both an aluminum and a fiberglass yacht I now feel that while aluminum is stronger, the long-term winner is fiberglass. Easier to repair and not subject to electrolytic problems, whether mine or the next boat's. With aluminum, every little strand of copper wire dropped into the bilge from repairing a bilge pump becomes a little electrolytic cancer eating through the metal. Ditto lost pocket change. And always in impossible places to gain access. Makes fiberglass pox look easy.

[jim rosenthal]

Agreed. I had a Striker 44 years ago, and I remember finding places in the bilge hull plating where small bits of rusty metal had dropped off the engines and were eating pits into the inside of the plating, which was only 6mm thick. although I love Burgers, I'll stick to the kind you can get at 5 Guys. I can't afford the maintenance on a metal boat. Been there, done that.

[dottieshusband]

David, I think the 72 Burger at Harbor Town is back on the market. The rumor was it was sold, but then the buyer has second thoughts, and is reselling the boat. In any event, I can tell you how to make a SMALL FORTUNE with an Aluminum Yacht....... Start fixing her up with a big one!

[davidwigler]

Ok, y'all have persuaded me. The thought of every nut and copper wire strand dropped in the bilge becoming a hole.... Plenty of work to do here. I'll stick where I am.

[saltshaker]

Burger is in a league of its own.

[jim rosenthal]

Probably the only aluminum yacht worth all the trouble of owning one. A great deal of trouble, but a really beautiful well-built boat as well.

[SKYCHENEY]

One of my favorite Burgers. Her name is Wolverine.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7110/7539525858_046e61483f_z.jpg

[Freeebird]

One of my favorite Burgers. Her name is Wolverine.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7110/7539525858_046e61483f_z.jpgStunning! Looks like an overgrown 58TC. Gotta love those lines.

[davidwigler]

Anyone know a good book on aluminum yacht maintenance?

[34Hatt]

Well, simple logic would dictate that if one could cruise from The Keys to a given point aboard a 76' boat, one would certainly be able to cruise back. One of many endless cruising points we have here in Tennessee is The Keys. Then again, one has to have the ability to grasp the obvious.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Never mind. :)

Tweet, tweet... that was for Dr. Jim. :)


And that would be in Fresh water then :confused:

Remember your first statement :p

[Boatsb]

Anyone know a good book on aluminum yacht maintenance?

Yup a check book.

[Freeebird]

And that would be in Fresh water then :confused:

Remember your first statement :pYou mean this one?


I would think maintenance would be the same IF the boat were kept in freshwater. Lots of old Marinette's around here as proof of that.David lives in God's country, just like me, and yes, we have freshwater, and yes, we have unlimited cruising destinations including The Keys. What is your point?

As to all the negatives mentioned concerning aluminum boats, are they or are they not exclusive to boats which are kept in saltwater? Broward's quality is questionable, and trying to undo damage is going to be costly if not impossible, but had one been taken immediately into freshwater and kept there, I'm guessing it would have held up quite well. Again, there are TONS of 60's and 70's Marinette's (aluminum hulls) in this area that are still going strong and command some pretty good prices. Seagoing they ain't, and they sound like empty 50 gallon drums when waves slap the hull. Other than that, they are extremely economical to run with the lighter weight.

[jim rosenthal]

There used to be a book titled "Metal Corrosion in Boats" by Nigel Warren, I think. It may still be out there or on Amazon or eBay. Very good on this kind of thing.

[34Hatt]

You mean this one?

David lives in God's country, just like me, and yes, we have freshwater, and yes, we have unlimited cruising destinations including The Keys. What is your point?

As to all the negatives mentioned concerning aluminum boats, are they or are they not exclusive to boats which are kept in saltwater? Broward's quality is questionable, and trying to undo damage is going to be costly if not impossible, but had one been taken immediately into freshwater and kept there, I'm guessing it would have held up quite well. Again, there are TONS of 60's and 70's Marinette's (aluminum hulls) in this area that are still going strong and command some pretty good prices. Seagoing they ain't, and they sound like empty 50 gallon drums when waves slap the hull. Other than that, they are extremely economical to run with the lighter weight.

The point is taking it to fresh water does help but if you then are going to cruise back to the Keys it is not going to help since it would take a year plus to stop a lot of the pitting and corrosion. Most of the problem are seams, screw holes, window frames and all the other nooks and crannies as they say. The salt gets into them and takes a lot of maintenance to stop it. After a year or two of watching and working on those spots it would make a difference but not if you keep going back to salt. I think you follow that except for maybe the Maintenance part ;)

[Freeebird]

That's all you've got?

I win. :p

[scallywag]

After living aboard my aluminum yacht for the past year and a half I'd like to chime in on my experiences.

1.) The survey process. I cannot stress how important a proper hull survey is. Get a surveyor that is very familiar with aluminum. Trust nobody and become your own expert on corrosion principals! Remember though, if there is a problem you will SEE IT. Aluminum doesn't hide problems so just make sure you look everywhere for obvious signs!

2.) Understand aluminum is not aluminum... there are many different alloys of which 5086 or anything 5000 series should be used in sea water. Anything else is inferior. Find out what alloy was used in your build. There is a wooden hull 75 foot Broward in my marina with a full time crew of two. They're constantly refinishing brightwork and addressing issues with the paint system. This Broward's main issues are a large amount of the flybridge and house sides made of aluminum (not wood). I can only guess its low grade aluminum because they are fighting paint blisters yearly.

3.) Equip the boat with a CAPAC meter. This monitors corrosion potential of your hull. Pulling in to a marina with crappy shorepower (read Bahamas) can chew through your zincs and eventually your hull. There is an old classic wooden Whiticar sportfish in the slip next to me. Every time she leaves my CAPAC monitor is much happier and "well into the green", but when she returns my meter is closer to "the yellow". Obviously the old Whiticar has stray current issues.

4.) This one should be obvious, but stay on top of your zincs! Once they are gone your boat becomes a zinc for your neighbors. This is when the alka-seltzer fizzing begins. Impressed current protection is another option, but I don't know enough about it to say anything.

5.) Isolation transformers are a must and help with shoddy shore power. Galvanic isolators are obviously a given as well.
That green wire on your shore power connects you to every other boat in the marina. Properly isolating your electrical system makes it so their problems aren't yours.

6.) The word "paint" is spelled P-A-I-N when it comes to aluminum. The big expense is paint. For a full job in the yard my boat would be around 6 figures. A paint system should last 10 years, but spot repairs will be needed after 5 or less depending on how well the aluminum was prepped. Maintaining a yacht in bristol condition would suggest a 6 figure paint job every 5 years. Going in, I decided I would become my own "expert" on painting aluminum. I'm not sure why they call it painting in the first place since all the work is grinding, sanding, and fairing! Painting the shiny stuff is the easy part.
Food for thought: most newer performance cars have aluminum body panels. The Audi A8 and A2 both have all aluminum body panels. Of course, they don't spend their entire life floating in seawater. :)

Other than that, an aluminum yacht is just like a plastic one except with various upsides.

1.) Ride. An aluminum boat feels "tight" in a sea since it is one continuous piece of metal and not various pieces of wood and plastic that are glued together. Its hard to explain, but easily noticed. Flexing in the hull is almost non existent (which is why you can do engine alignment on the hard). It just feels good.

2.) Safety. When an aluminum boat strikes an object it dents like crazy, but is much less likely to breach than a fiberglass or even steel hull. Fiberglass is brittle and tends to shatter and tear.

3.) Repairs. Although welding isn't cheap, neither is glasswork or rotten stringer repair. A properly done repair is just as strong as no repair was needed. Old plate can be plasma cut right out and new material can be welded right in. There is no relying on chemical bonds (read "glue").

4.) No leaks. Aluminum boats just don't leak or absorb water. The bilge should be BONE dry. Also, aluminum doesn't delaminate like fiberglass can.

5.) No coring in decks or superstructure to repair... ever. Your decks are hard as metal because they are metal.

6.) IMO it will always be worth "something". Even as scrap! :cool:

I originally started off looking for a Hatteras or Viking motoryacht and stumbled upon my custom aluminum yacht. I've learned a lot in the last year or so and concluded aluminum is an excellent material if you know how to properly care for it.

There are a lot of misconceptions about aluminum like “it rusts” or “it has to be painted” or “it dissolves if it touches salt water”. Heck, even the old penny in the bilge eating a hole in the hull is mostly a wive's tale. Yes, dissimilar metals are bad and I make sure any random metals (or even plastics or other garbage) are not in my bilge. I loosened up a bit after finding a bronze washer that had been laying in the bilge in the same spot for at least a year with no sign of corrosion to the plate underneath it. I can only guess there simply wasn't enough of an electrolyte (salt water) for it to corrode the aluminum. Its good to have a dry bilge.

I can't speak specifically about Browards. Maybe they are a completely different animal.

[jim rosenthal]

All true- but in my previous boat, a 44' Striker built in Norway by Fjellstrand Aluminum Yachts, I found ferrous metal particles in the bilge with pits in the bilge plating. Bronze and copper may not eat aluminum; ferrous metals do, from my experience.

As you say, keep the bilge DRY and keep everything nice and tidy, and it isn't a problem.

[34Hatt]

That's all you've got?

I win. :p

Ok then you get to buy the next bottle of Goose Congrats :cool:

[q240z]

Probably the only aluminum yacht worth all the trouble of owning one. A great deal of trouble, but a really beautiful well-built boat as well.
Oh...I don't know about that, Jim. ;-)

I think if a manufacturer or refitter uses modern approaches with aluminum, especially regarding the latest epoxy coating and fairing systems, Tefgel for every screw hole and otherwise properly bedding everything, aluminum becomes far less needy when it comes to maintenance. A properly sandblasted and epoxy-coated bilge in an aluminum boat, like what I've done with my 1969 Chris Craft Roamer 46, will be as unaffected by a bit of copper wire that drops in the bilge as a fiberglass or wooden hull.

But from the comments here, it kinda looks like Browards aren't assembled with that kind of care.

That said...I'm still paranoid about every bit of copper in my Roamer. :p

Cheers,
Q

[yachtsmanbill]

RXP36 1603 R (do the math) is 50 and still going strong. No stringy plywood either

http://i39.tinypic.com/r02kpi.jpg

[SKYCHENEY]

Great looking Roamer, Bill. How many complete paint jobs in 50 years?

[yachtsmanbill]

Lemme see now... the original owner had the boat 9 years and owned a lumber yard. His guys always did the work which was less than professional, with oil based paints back then, so I cant say for sure. Dad never had the boat painted so my first year I did a total alkyd job(1982) and around 1986 did the complete awlgrip job which lasted until last spring ... it was finally dead enough to bury it. Those old single part enamels were only about a 2-3 year paint job Id guess. Incorrect fairing compound is a gigantic issue as well.
On a closing note, even with 150 lbs of zinc on the boat theres always been a corrosion issue (below the water line OUTSIDE). Maybe 100 "dots" and 50 thumbprint sized spots. The Chicago marinas customers were their own professional electricians, so that in itself is and issue. This year with the new all wood dock, theres about 10 pencil point dots on the whole boat. CAPAC was designed by the US NAVY for steel protection. It is the WRONG system for aluminum and protects the steel dock with the boat being sacrificial. Right now if I take my meter with the silver chloride half cell and read the impressed corrosion total it comes in around 1 to 1.5 Mv (millivolts). The 6.5 KVA isolation transformer was a big help along with assistance for YCC (Yacht Corrosion Control consultants in FtL.)
The roamers all had a simple 2 wire system as well for the 110 Volt AC dock power with ungrounded outlets, which raised hell with a lot of stuff. Even a steel tack hanging a picture on the wood bulkhead ate away to nothing with the picture laying on the floor in the spring. I still regard aluminum highly in a pound for pound battle against glass or wood... even steel for that matter. My hull is .250" thick and the steel jobs are 12 gage.
All the exspurts that have never owned an aluminum boat should shut up and listen for a change. Glass hats can eat through hulls and wood boats rot in fresh water but eat screws in seawater. Don't forget the worm shoe.
Sooo. to answer SKYs question. They last a long time and can look prtty shitty, but are none the worse for wear. Heres some pics last spring before the new paint (1985 awlgrip) ground clean and used awlfair with primer etc for an interlux perfections paint job. I figure one more time before the stick me in the gas oven. Poor old boat has served me well! ws

http://i44.tinypic.com/2n1av13.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ztkpde.jpg
Automotive glass compound failing

http://i42.tinypic.com/2a0iyac.jpg
POOR PREP IN 1986

http://i39.tinypic.com/2reljwk.jpg

[yachtsmanbill]

Too windy and cold to spray so it was a roll and tip. A few runs as we were painting by car headlights at 10 pm. Those will get sanded and buffed out later... ws

http://i41.tinypic.com/314e54w.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/29zognc.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2d0aniu.jpg

Flawless? Maybe not but the labor price was $ZERO/hour. Everyone in the area around 20 miles either way from here knows the boat too!

http://i42.tinypic.com/2lkbrjd.jpg

[q240z]

Looks great, Bill! Are you going to use Tefgel in the rub rail screw holes or do you have other plans? A buddy of mine has had good results from just dipping the threads of each screw in the same paint he uses for the topcoat before threading it into the hull. Anything that seals up the aluminum is good.

There's a 58' aluminum Roamer in our marina that was painted in 2007. It still looks great. The reason it got painted is because the paint got cooked when the FRP boat in the next slip over caught fire and burned pretty much all the way to the waterline.

Never heard of a metal boat doing that... ;-)

Q

[yachtsmanbill]

Believe it or not, I use Alex Caulk at $2.95 a tube from Retards. I used to use 5200, but the few times the rub strakes needed to come of they pulled a ton of paint with them. The Alex stuff is latex based with UV stabilizers. The stuff is bedded down 100% including the screws, and then wiped down with a wet rag until its fingernail edge clean. The judges hate it. The strakes can come of and get cleaned pretty easy, yet the stuff in "shear" is strong enough to withstand rubbing up and down on a piling, which of course, is what they are there for in the first place.
You can spend half yer life making something as perfect as can be, yet still have to redo it in 10 years. Now, I spend 15 minutes and still hafta redo it in 10 years. Hmmm Some funky math goin' on here! ws