Alternator Parts

[Dan Mapes]

We have Leece-Neville Co. flange mounted alternators on our 6-71TIs. They are 90 amp, 14v, pn 8923597, service parts type 3525JC, complete model number A001090652.
We tossed one on the bank coming over to the Abacos, and I need the guts to get this thing going again.
Anyone have a lead on a place where I can get diodes, regulators, etc. for these things?

[DLCameron2]

HI Dan:

Try contacting Dan at: http://heavy-truck-parts-and-services.com/auto-electric.html

Let us know how it works out.

DC

[rsmith]

We have Leece-Neville Co. flange mounted alternators on our 6-71TIs. They are 90 amp, 14v, pn 8923597, service parts type 3525JC, complete model number A001090652.
We tossed one on the bank coming over to the Abacos, and I need the guts to get this thing going again.
Anyone have a lead on a place where I can get diodes, regulators, etc. for these things?


Sarasola starter and generator in Ft Pierce. Family deal, they rebuild anything on site.
3100 N US Highway 1
Fort Pierce, FL 34946-8746
(772) 465-8274

[GJH]

Vic's DC Electric in Stuart is another place to call. Good guy.

http://www.vicsdc.com/

[Dan Mapes]

Thank you everyone. Getting this fixed is large, not huge but large. Since it is the stbd alternator, we are not in a bad way. Most of the bridge etc. is driven off the port side thank goodness.
But if we are going to continue on, having this one taken care of so I can divert load will be a very good thing.
Fortunately we will hang on Elbow Cay for a few months allowing time to debug and swap out parts.
I'll try all of these folks out. Maybe they can ship us some parts.

[Boatsb]

Does this mean you don't have a spare? Why not send it to one of the shops and get it repaired right instead of making it a 3 month project. This way it's finished and off the worry list. Then you can enjoy the time in the islands.

[yachtsmanbill]

That should almost be available as an exchange. Dont forget to buy a gasket! ws

[rsmith]

Thank you everyone. Getting this fixed is large, not huge but large. Since it is the stbd alternator, we are not in a bad way. Most of the bridge etc. is driven off the port side thank goodness.
But if we are going to continue on, having this one taken care of so I can divert load will be a very good thing.
Fortunately we will hang on Elbow Cay for a few months allowing time to debug and swap out parts.
I'll try all of these folks out. Maybe they can ship us some parts.


If your at at Hopetown take a run over to Man-o-war they do a lot of boatbuilding and repairs over there. I'm sure someone named Aubury can help you.

[REBrueckner]

Always a good idea to be able to parallel your start batteries for long periods when underway for just such a problem. I added a manual battery switch so I could parallel house batts and port, house and stbd, or all three together to insure charging even if I lost an alternator.

A light duty alternative, without the ability to charge if an alternator goes out is to provide two sources for your electronics....by running another medium size wire to your most used helm and adding a selector switch.

When you have time, maybe you can find a rebuilt alternator to fit your rig or maybe find one on ebay. I ended up, after seaching for a few mos, with a $400 dollar 160 amp rebuilt Powerline alternator for about $100 from ebay as a spare. It uses the same smart regulator as my other two Powerlines so a change out would have been mostly mounting work not wiring.

For those with belt charge alternators, a spare belt or belt set is not a bad idea..especially if it fits either engine.

[Dan Mapes]

The thought of shipping this back to the States scares the heck out of me since without it I cannot run the engine. It's loss would be a disaster. Thus if I can get diodes and a regulator for it, perhaps that will resolve the issue.
Maybe I was incorrect with my description. It's shaft driven off the back end of the supercharger. Looking around on the web finding these things is like finding cavity free hen's teeth and if you do, 2k sounds like the going price? Insane. I'll add a high output belt system instead of getting a spare once this is resolved.

Are there replacement alternators that will mount up to the existing hardware because they have the proper shaft etc.?

I found a set of images that look like the part:

http://www.surplusman.com/Detail.php?itemid=4725


Out of curiousity, can one pull the regulator and jumper the wires to see if the regulator swap will resolve this?

By the way the stbd side alternator is only driving gauges etc. and the generator will charge the battery with its alternator (small as it is though). The only issue is starting the genny and the house bank (2 8D AGMs) have a parallel switch to the engine battery so I have some capability there as well. I have a switch installed and a wire to dual/1/2 the engine batteries to the house as well, but I need to add an additional wire to another switch and its full.

[Genesis]

You can pull that alternator and fit a cover plate where it is if you need to run the engine (so oil doesn't go everywhere!) Make sure you remove the coupler disc as well (that engages the "tangs" on both the alternator and the drive.)

The flange-driven alternators are excellent - some people have rigged belt-driven replacements off the front crank pulley but I wouldn't unless you have to. If you have a combiner (the Yandina one works fine) you can run on one alternator; it's better of course if you have a genset with the AC charger as you then still have two charge sources and with a combiner can restore either bank.

I'd fix the flange-driven alternator. They're expensive on a swap basis - if it's just the diodes and/or regulator then I'd DEFINITELY fix it rather than junk it.

[rsmith]

FWIW I got rid of my alts a long long time ago. Since my gen is always running and I have 2, I just use the charger to supply the batts.

[86Hat41]

I just went through this with my gear driven alternator. Mine was a military unit that Covington must have gotten a deal on and not rebuildable. I found a direct bolt on replacement for around $600, non military and rebuildable.
I would recommend keeping the faulty alt. so one day when your future replacement fails you can use it to keep the oil where it belongs.

[Pascal]

Always a good idea to be able to parallel your start batteries for long periods when underway for just such a problem. I added a manual battery switch so I could parallel house batts and port, house and stbd, or all three together to insure charging even if I lost an alternator.


careful Rob, we already have a 50 post thread on how dangerous and irresponsible it is to parallel battery banks with anything but a solenoid! :)

[Pascal]

FWIW I got rid of my alts a long long time ago. Since my gen is always running and I have 2, I just use the charger to supply the batts.

you said "the charger", do you only have one? if so, i woudlnt' rely on just one charger to keep the entire boat running!

i know an old DD will always get you back home but having the redundancy of 3 charging sources is pretty important.

[Pascal]

The thought of shipping this back to the States scares the heck out of me since without it I cannot run the engine. It's loss would be a disaster. Thus if I can get diodes and a regulator for it, perhaps that will resolve the issue.
Maybe I was incorrect with my description. It's shaft driven off the back end of the supercharger. Looking around on the web finding these things is like finding cavity free hen's teeth and if you do, 2k sounds like the going price? Insane. I'll add a high output belt system instead of getting a spare once this is resolved.

Are there replacement alternators that will mount up to the existing hardware because they have the proper shaft etc.?

I found a set of images that look like the part:

http://www.surplusman.com/Detail.php?itemid=4725


Out of curiousity, can one pull the regulator and jumper the wires to see if the regulator swap will resolve this?

By the way the stbd side alternator is only driving gauges etc. and the generator will charge the battery with its alternator (small as it is though). The only issue is starting the genny and the house bank (2 8D AGMs) have a parallel switch to the engine battery so I have some capability there as well. I have a switch installed and a wire to dual/1/2 the engine batteries to the house as well, but I need to add an additional wire to another switch and its full.

i'd be reluctant to swap parts with the good alternator since you're not in a very conveninent location to get things repaired. i've seen bad alternators frying good regulators.

as Karl suggested, you could fit a blanking plate... easy to make. then open up the alternator and see if you can remove the components to ID them or email pictures for a shop to ID the parts and get you replacements.

[Boatsb]

FWIW I got rid of my alts a long long time ago. Since my gen is always running and I have 2, I just use the charger to supply the batts.


Mr smith does not get a prize for this one. That's just a bit too scary for me. I like redundant systems like alternators and chargers. If one goes down I have the other.

[rsmith]

you said "the charger", do you only have one? if so, i woudlnt' rely on just one charger to keep the entire boat running!

i know an old DD will always get you back home but having the redundancy of 3 charging sources is pretty important.


I got rid of tha alts 30years ago. They were plauged with external regulator problems. I started thinking why sap the power off the engines when I have 2 gens and a charger. And realisticly the only things that run off 32v on my boat are the heads SSB and some lighting. Even if the charger quits there is no big emergency just limit the 32v usage. The batts will stay up. The gens run on their own 12v bank and power the majority of electronic equiptment.
When I go to the Islands I carry a extra charger that I can temp install but for a day trip ,so what! I also carry a extra microwave when we go to the Islands as it would be a bigger emergency to lose than the batt charger.
If I carried all the extra stuff that is recomended on this site the boat would sink. . Any of you guys have survival suits on board? I do. IMHO they are way more important than having 35 ways to charge your batts. But then again I dont ride around with bad batts.

Hypothermia Chart IF THE WATER TEMPERATURE (F) IS: EXHAUSTION OR UNCONSCIOUSNESS EXPECTED TIME OF SURVIVAL IS:
32.5 Under 15 Minutes
32.5 - 40.0 15 - 30 Minutes
40.0 - 50.0 30 - 60 Minutes
50.0 - 60.0 1 -2 Hours
60.0 - 70.0 2 - 7 Hours
70.0 - 80.0 3 - 12 Hours
OVER 80.0 Indefinitely Indefinitely

[Fanfare]

After many years in the Bahamas, and after having something critical break every once in a while, here's what I have learned to do when something breaks. Take off the part, wrap in several plastic bags, put it in a suitcase, and fly back with it to Florida to where you can not only get it fixed, but know exactly where it is. Before leaving the Bahamas, show the Customs man your alternator and have him give you a receipt for taking it out. Then, when you bring it back you only owe duty on the repair cost, not on the whole thing. Try to avoid having them write down the serial number because often you get a rebuilt with a new number. Mostly the don't notice this. Whether or not a boat "in transit" owes duty on repairs seems to change monthly, but take a copy (not the original, which must remain on board at all times) of your transire. This will also avoid your having to buy a round-trip ticket for getting back in the Bahamas.

Second choice is Fed Ex, but even then your returned part can languish in customs and often nobody will look for it. I have spent a lot of time walking back and forth from my boat to customs and back only to find the part was filed under my first name or something. Also, if you ship it, the amount you pay duty on includes the shipping fee. Add all this up and flying becomes cheap.

Good luck. Hope to see you this spring.

[Dan Mapes]

Jim thanks for the advice. That pretty much sums up the only way I would ship the alternator to the States (in my hands). These things are about 1k new and that price has me thinking of a belt conversion to a modern alternator with a smart regulator that is easily spared out. Anyway we may have a lead on some parts and we'll see what happens. If we can repair this we may also pick up a spare.

We are at the Bluff House now waiting to get around the Whale so if you are arriving in Spring let us know we'll be on the lookout. We intend to hang on Elbow Cay for most of the Winter and then hit Guana for a while. If the weather settles down, we (conditionally with a pair of working alternators) will try for the Exumas yet again. But we may hang out here in the Spring for a while if the weather is still rough hoping to get a break we can take advantage of to move South. The parrots are stilly flying over at sunset and there are no preachers asking us what our greatest accomplishments in life are.

[Dan Mapes]

Ok, with luck we have some parts coming in on Monday. This alternator is driven off the supercharger drive gear, and it looks like I have to take all six bolts out to slide it out.
I believe that is because the drive cog is installed after the adapter plate/casting that mates to the flywheel housing that has the supercharger gear within it.
Do I have to worry about parts falling into the pan with this? Two bolts face aft and 4 are facing forward. Given that I'm thinking I'll loosen the two aft bolts and the others will slide out with the alternator once all the nuts have been removed.

The second photo illustrates the issue. Most have an additional plate in between that 1 3/4 thick casting that has the seal installed in it. This "design" leaves that plate out and thus the seal goes into the casting.

I guess they figured alternators didn't require service. :D


http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/danno53/DSC00887.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/danno53/DSC00885.jpg

[Glory]

FWIW I got rid of my alts a long long time ago. Since my gen is always running and I have 2, I just use the charger to supply the batts.


I respectfully suggest that is not a good idea. A failure at the rotary switch that selects the gen could cause a a power loss and no charge to the batteries. And as you know a day can go bad fast when multiple issues compound the problem.

I would also suggest the charge rate of a 150 amp alternator will beat most fixed chargers. It would also be a benifit to be able to fall back on the gen in stead of it being a front line.

JM

[Dan Mapes]

With an AC alarm active I would think two gens are adequate. The genny has alternators that charge the batteries correct?

I know ours charges its starting battery and I could run it to keep the bad alternator's battery charged or, even use the AC powered charger driven by the genny. Note this implies that the alternators of the genny and stbd engine share the same battery and always have. Maybe that's why this alternator blew out :D

Our priorities are a bit different in that I'd rather use one of the engines to keep the inverter supplied and also use the alternator to drive all of the bridge electronics.

[Genesis]

Offshore my opinion is that 2 working charging and energy-storage sources that can be isolated from one another if necessary are a minimum.

With Detroits you don't need power for the engines to run once started, but everything except your compass (and paper charts - you DO have them, right, and you DO take periodic fixes and write them down, right?) disappears if your power goes southbound.

If you have engines that require power to keep operating then your need for stable and available power offshore is even greater.

One of the more-interesting "events" I had offshore with Gigabite was fishing in the canyon ~100nm out overnight. A blow-up storm came through and there was an offshore shrimper about ~4-5nm off my port bow, doing his thing. He got hit by lightning and went dark about 2:00 AM - we steamed over after being unable to raise him on the radio and found he had working propulsion (big mechanical diesels) but nothing else other than a compass and charts; said the hit destroyed their electrical panels and presumably every piece of electronics on board. He refused assistance as he knew where he was and which way was home but thanked us for checking on him and said they'd make their way in when the sun came up.

Sumptin' to think about if you go "seriously offshore".....

[Pascal]

dan

genset alternators typically only charge their start batteries, not your engine or house banks. their alternators are usually pretty small anyway.

while the ole DD will get you home without electricity as Karl mentioned if you run down your batteries then you're out of nav lights, bilge pump and nav gear.

two generators do not offer adequate redundancy espcially if you only have a single battery charger on the boat. loose the charger and you're out of juice.

I woudln't go offshore with that set up.

[Boatsb]

dan

genset alternators typically only charge their start batteries, not your engine or house banks. their alternators are usually pretty small anyway.

while the ole DD will get you home without electricity as Karl mentioned if you run down your batteries then you're out of nav lights, bilge pump and nav gear.

two generators do not offer adequate redundancy espcially if you only have a single battery charger on the boat. loose the charger and you're out of juice.

I woudln't go offshore with that set up.


From previous posts and statements I have to ask. What would you need to go offshore?

[Canuck Dennis]

I have been offshore many times, including trans Panama, I have 2- 12 71'n's, two 20 KW gens, two 32 V chargers, two 12 V chargers, one 240 V ac inverter, two 150 amp alternators.
Two Radars, two depth sounders,3 VHF radios and a 406 epirp
and of course...sat TV..lol..

Now, all that seems fairly good coverage but, the big one is.....how clean is the diesel fuel, how many fuel filters do you have and how many gallons of oil on board....that's the really critical stuff along with the drogue....and no set schedule..and a dry boat...

[captddis]

All you need to pull the alt off is remove the three bolts. It will, pull offf, Catch the fiber coupling as you pull the alt off.

[Dan Mapes]

All you need to pull the alt off is remove the three bolts. It will, pull offf, Catch the fiber coupling as you pull the alt off.

Been there and it will not. Look here:

http://www.surplusman.com/Detail.php?itemid=4725

If you can get all of the larger photos to load you will see what I am talking about. This is certainly what we have installed. Somewhere along the way the thin plate that carried the seal was dropped and the seal was moved to the casting that mates it to the flywheel housing.

[captddis]

Take the three bolts off and you will need to use a putty knife or something to sepertae the gasket from the housing. Don't make it complicated! I have done dozens of these.

[Boatsb]

Take the three bolts off and you will need to use a putty knife or something to sepertae the gasket from the housing. Don't make it complicated! I have done dozens of these.


OR JUST GET A BIGGER HAMMER

[Dan Mapes]

Take the three bolts off and you will need to use a putty knife or something to sepertae the gasket from the housing. Don't make it complicated! I have done dozens of these.

Look at that site I just posted! You will see the cog installed after the casting I have a photo of. The three bolts hold the alternator to that casting. As such, the alternator cannot be removed without the casting!
We have pulled the three bolts and the alternator/fan assembly move aft and are restrained by the cog.
If I have to remove this I'll post photos. We are hoping a regulator will resolve this issue.

[captddis]

Look at that site I just posted! You will see the cog installed after the casting I have a photo of. The three bolts hold the alternator to that casting. As such, the alternator cannot be removed without the casting!
We have pulled the three bolts and the alternator/fan assembly move aft and are restrained by the cog.
If I have to remove this I'll post photos. We are hoping a regulator will resolve this issue.


Do what you like. I told you how it comes apart. As did Ski on Boatdiesel.The only thing that holds it together is a gasket on the very front.

[Dan Mapes]

Do what you like. I told you how it comes apart. As did Ski on Boatdiesel.The only thing that holds it together is a gasket on the very front.

One mechanic has suggested this mount was done for transmission clearance. While that looks close, the mounting plate for the raw water pump off the cam is as well.
I agree.

If I have to pull it I will take photos, but the image links and the link to surplus man above would convince most this will not come out by removing the three bolts that hold the alternator and fan assembly into the casting. These are Covingtons and they may be slightly different from what you have worked on.

[captddis]

I dunno, I have looked at the pics a dozen times and I can't see why it won't pull out. The hub looks like there is no issue passing through the adapter. I have done these on mid 80's36C with the same engines and Leece Neville alts...

[Dan Mapes]

Believe me I am wishing that was the case. If I wasn't there when we attempted to remove the alternator via the three bolts I'd buy in. But the 4th photo from the left at surplus man is rather convincing as I don't see a seal edge or carrier, and there are no edges on the casting that make it look as though it pulls away.
Are you saying the seal is installed into the fan assembly?

[Genesis]

Yes, it is. It's on the shaft that goes through the carrier and has the two tangs that fit the drive disc.

[Dan Mapes]

I am relatively sure the fan assembly came out with the alternator and the cog held it up. We'll see if I need to pull it.

[Genesis]

The assembly looks like this:

Alternator : Fan/Hub : Block

The fan is in the "center" assembly and has the drive bolted through the seal and to the alternator, with the hub (slotted for the fan to cool things via) in the middle. The drive has two tangs that engage the phenolic disc that actually drives the alternator (there are two tangs on the engine side, the disk goes in using two of the 4 slots, the alternator drive fits in the other two)

To remove the hub (for seal replacement, for example) once the assembly is off the engine you hold the tangs (e.g. with a crescent wrench) and unbolt the drive from the alternator shaft. You can then pull the hub off the alternator.

[Dan Mapes]

Vic's DC Electric in Stuart is another place to call. Good guy.

http://www.vicsdc.com/

George

Thanks for the lead. Vic worked with me on a scratchy internet phone line and we were able to determine the regulator was a likely option. He sent me one along with a seal and gasket in case the alternator had to come out.
This morning I replaced the regulator and the alternator came back to life.

At this point I am hoping that the regulator failure was not caused by a different and primary failure that is temperature or vibration related. We'll know more as time goes on. At this point I am more confident about moving further South in the Spring when the Atlantic settles down.

[Genesis]

The regulator failure may have been random ("it just broke") but these often fail due to loose connections that cause the alternator to become unloaded (disconnected effectively) while running. That quite-reliably destroys the diodes in the rectifier and regulator package.

Check the connections VERY CLOSELY (do it after pulling the battery primary cables, as shorts on those terminals and wiring to them are to be avoided AT ALL COSTS.)

[Dan Mapes]

Check the connections VERY CLOSELY (do it after pulling the battery primary cables, as shorts on those terminals and wiring to them are to be avoided AT ALL COSTS.)

And there's only about a bajillion of them. :D