Windlass blowing fuses

[MikeP]

On the last trip out my windlass stopped working. I had been running it rather hard and using it to pull the boat toward the anchor more than I should have. It popped the circuit breaker (added by PO, NOT part of the oem Hatt wiring). I didn't pay much attention - the anchor was almost in the boat so I hauled it in by hand and since we were heading back to the marina, I didn't look at it at all.

But back here, I discovered that the 50A breaker had tripped AND the 150A fuse had blown. I installed a new fuse and, when I reset the breaker, got a nice loud POP and some nice blue sparks. Just to clarify - the oem Hatt wiring calls for a 50A fuse, no breaker. The PO decided he needed a breaker so he installed it at the locker, increasing the fuse size so the breaker would be the limiting factor. The wiring, 2AWG, is sufficient to support the 150A breaker for the length of the run so that's not a safety issue.

OK...the motor seems OK, I pulled the back off and the brushes are fine, nothing shorted or burnt. There is about 35 Ohms of resistance between either brush terminal and the motor case. HOWEVER, if the motor is connected to the relays, and NO power is applied (breaker open) there is 0 Ohms (short circuit) between one of the brush terminals and the case. SO the relay(s) seem to be causing the short.

This leads me to believe that something burnt out/jammed in the relay(s) that is causing . BUt I don't really understand the setup. There are two pairs of relays - a pair for each direction instead of just a single relay for each direction. Why are there two relays for each direction and is it possible that a relay (or pair) are melted/jammed and causing the problem?

[q240z]

On my Ideal, there's a solenoid for each of the leads (+ -).

But I can't imagine how a solenoid could cause a short in a remote motor.

[MikeP]

"But I can't imagine how a solenoid could cause a short in a remote motor."

Yeah...I think you are right. Here's a pic of the solenoid setup. I just discovered that I have a short circuit indicated (0 Ohms) if I put a multimeter on the two motor brush terminals. I'm checking to see what sort of reading I should be getting but that seems wrong and now I'm thinking there IS short in the motor. Maybe I burned out a winding... ??

The two disconnected red wires in the pic go to the motor's brush terminals
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb84/mikeP996/DSC_1938.jpg

[MikeP]

With the motor disconnected and the power applied, stepping on one of the foot switches will pop the breaker. So now I'm back to thinking the problem is within the solenoid setup. Perhaps one of the solenoids fuzed internally in the "on" position that is causing the short? Beats me at the moment...

[Pascal]

"The two disconnected red wires in the pic go to the motor's brush terminals"

sure about that? seems to me that it would be the heavier gauges wires which go the windlass, those thinner red wire probably go to the foot switches or helm switch.

if you disconnect the windlass and apply power directly to the terminals on the motor, does it work?

[Bob Bradley]

Might the PO have tried to install a switch at the helm to deploy and retrieve the anchor? I cobbled together a similar setup of solenoids many years ago on my old Chris to avoid having to buy a $250 "black box" reversing switch.

I set it up as solenoids 1, 2, 3, and 4, where 1 and 2 sent 12v+ and 3 and 4 were 12v-. When I wanted to retrieve the anchor 1 and 3 were activated and when I wanted to deploy the anchor 2 and 4 were activated. I used a low amperage DPDT switch at the helm.

[MikeP]

Everything has worked perfectly for the entire time we have owned the boat until the other day when I was retrieving the anchor. The circuit wiring (other than the addition of the breaker by the PO) is per the Hatt factory wiring diagrams, including that for the 4 relays and the motor wires. The two disconnected wires (I disconnected them yesterday) run from the solenoid bank to the motor and provide the 32v for the motor.

However, I MAY have found the problem...I disconnected the "buss" connection, isolating each of the solenoids and checked the main circuit. 3 of the 4 solenoids are 'open" with no power applied, as they should be but one is closed. I believe that is the problem. With the buss disconnected between the breaker pairs, I can hear solenoids operating when I press the foot switches. If I reconnect the buss between the two lower solenoids, one of which shows "closed" with no power, and hit the foot switches, the breaker will pop. If I connect the buss between the upper solenoids and press the foot switches, the solenoids activate properly. So I'm now pretty confident that the "closed" solenoid is the problem.

[rsmith]

Everything has worked perfectly for the entire time we have owned the boat until the other day when I was retrieving the anchor. The circuit wiring (other than the addition of the breaker by the PO) is per the Hatt factory wiring diagrams, including that for the 4 relays and the motor wires. The two disconnected wires (I disconnected them yesterday) run from the solenoid bank to the motor and provide the 32v for the motor.

However, I MAY have found the problem...I disconnected the "buss" connection, isolating each of the solenoids and checked the main circuit. 3 of the 4 solenoids are 'open" with no power applied, as they should be but one is closed. I believe that is the problem. With the buss disconnected between the breaker pairs, I can hear solenoids operating when I press the foot switches. If I reconnect the buss between the two lower solenoids, one of which shows "closed" with no power, and hit the foot switches, the breaker will pop. If I connect the buss between the upper solenoids and press the foot switches, the solenoids activate properly. So I'm now pretty confident that the "closed" solenoid is the problem.

Mike are they set up as a reversing circuit?
for reversing motor rotation?

[MikeP]

Yes, they are a reversing circuit and use 4 Cole-Hersee #2480 36V solenoids. . And I found that the old starter solenoid trick - bang it with a hammer - restored the solenoid to "open" with no power applied. Additionally I found a new solenoid in a box of spares that has been on board since we bought the boat which indicates this has been done before! :)

[MikeP]

Yep, that was it - stuck solenoid. I took the old one apart and found that the contacts had "welded" themselves to each other so the spring would not let it return. I cleaned up the surfaces with fine sandpaper, shot it with Corrosion X, put it back together and all works perfectly again. I probably should have used the new solenoid I found but once cleaned up, the old one has no rough surfaces so I think it will be fine. If not, I now know how it all works and what the fix is.

So it was a learning experience and it might be helpful to others if something similar should happen - Symptoms are those of an internally shorted or short circuit on the wiring to the motor but it's just a stuck solenoid. Because it is a reversing circuit, if one of the solenoid sticks, when you activate the button to reverse the motor, it connects a still hot terminal (which shouldn't be)directly to the negative, it blows the fuse/breaker.

[Bob Bradley]

That would certainly do it.

[rsmith]

Yep, that was it - stuck solenoid. I took the old one apart and found that the contacts had "welded" themselves to each other so the spring would not let it return. I cleaned up the surfaces with fine sandpaper, shot it with Corrosion X, put it back together and all works perfectly again. I probably should have used the new solenoid I found but once cleaned up, the old one has no rough surfaces so I think it will be fine. If not, I now know how it all works and what the fix is.

So it was a learning experience and it might be helpful to others if something similar should happen - Symptoms are those of an internally shorted or short circuit on the wiring to the motor but it's just a stuck solenoid. Because it is a reversing circuit, if one of the solenoid sticks, when you activate the button to reverse the motor, it connects a still hot terminal (which shouldn't be)directly to the negative, it blows the fuse/breaker.

Was the top of the sol. crimped on? Sometimes your just as well to RB this stuff as buy new. I just had a brand new one for my jetski stick on and cooked the batt.

I'll bet Mike P's dock box looks like the Snap-On mans truck.

[MikeP]

Yes, it was crimped on so I pried it off, cleaned it all up and tapped the cap back on - it seems just as tight as it was previously.

Re the tools - I have a lot of Snap-on stuff, left over from my engine building days. I figure I can do just about anything as far as general work/overhaul - minus special tools that would be needed for some specific engine or tranny stuff. Of course, I have found that USUALLY there's a work-around for most special tools but they sure make it easier/faster. The main special tool that I would need for tranny work is a couple of much younger strong guys!

But I still envy the Snap-On truck! :)

[jim rosenthal]

Coming soon, to a dock near you....this is a good illustration of why we have circuit protection devices in the first place. Glad you got it figured out and that it turned out to be something fairly straightforward..

[q240z]

Don'tcha just love it when it all comes together like you planned it that way? lol

[SKYCHENEY]

Glad you figured it out, but I was curious as to the make. Is that an Ideal or GM? I ask because my GM has all of the connections/solenoids contained in a metal box with a breaker on the side of it. I was just curious as to if they changed the way they did things or if this was another manufacturer.

[MikeP]

The windlass is Ideal. The solenoids are mounted in the chain locker and it appears to be the oem setup - no box and no appearance that there ever was a box. As I said earlier, the wiring and presence of the 4 solenoids is as shown on the oem wiring diagram. I ASSUME that the breaker, which is mounted just above the chain locker door and is visible from the cabin, was added by the PO since it is not shown in the wiring diagram for the boat. It is not the Ideal breaker box which Ideal sells separately.

The PO had grandkids aboard a lot and I made the assumption that he had the breaker added as a switch to be able to conveniently shut off power to the windlass so the kids couldn't activate it. He told me that twice they pulled the manual fire extinguisher handle... ;)

[GJH]

Just saw this thread. Yep, I have had exactly the same thing happen. On occasion, I have the mate on the windlass switch in the pilot house and she has not stopped on signal, jamming the anchor. You should have a 40 amp breaker at the solenoids and a 50 amp ANL fuse back in the ER. Blue Seas has a waterproof breaker that can act as a switch that Ideal recommends and I put in to replace the old household type GE 50A that a PO (or Hatteras?) had up there.

The advantage of a switch is that you can avoid the deck or other switches shorting out when wet. We had this happen once in a big storm while I was away. Also cost a solenoid.Although hard to do on my boat, avoids windlass activation if someone inadvertently hit the foot switches or pulls the wrong knob. Life is good now. I have also been gradually replacing the unsealed solenoids in Mike's picture with rubber coated versions from Ideal.

[MikeP]

Thanks George,

Yes, the wiring diagram shows the 50A fuse in the ER but no breaker beyond that. BUt the setup you had with the GE 50A breaker sounds the same as what's in our boat. Maybe it was a common mod or a dealer thing.

One thing I don't understand is...WHY are there four 36V solenoids instead of two? I assume it's to increase the capacity of the solenoids but they are rated at 36V, 85A continuous so it sounds like plenty of capacity ... ???

[SKYCHENEY]

Mike,
To run the unit you need to apply positive on one side and negative on the other. Then to reverse it, you need to apply negative to the side that was positive and positive to the side that was negative. This requires 4 solenoids, two for fwd and two for reverse. You need a + and a - for each direction.

[rsmith]

The windlass is Ideal. The solenoids are mounted in the chain locker and it appears to be the oem setup - no box and no appearance that there ever was a box. As I said earlier, the wiring and presence of the 4 solenoids is as shown on the oem wiring diagram. I ASSUME that the breaker, which is mounted just above the chain locker door and is visible from the cabin, was added by the PO since it is not shown in the wiring diagram for the boat. It is not the Ideal breaker box which Ideal sells separately.

The PO had grandkids aboard a lot and I made the assumption that he had the breaker added as a switch to be able to conveniently shut off power to the windlass so the kids couldn't activate it. He told me that twice they pulled the manual fire extinguisher handle... ;)


"The PO had grandkids aboard a lot"
Some of the worst kids I've ever seen.LOL

[krush]

Nice! you figured it out and I didn't even have to chime in....but I just did anyway.