cruiseair won't start

[the kuz]

The 16,00 BTU unit in my salon was acting up this winter, and did not want to heat very well. Cooled like crazy, but would barely put out 70 degree air. Thought it might be a stuck reversing valve, but tapping produced no joy. Gave up and have not used it for about 6 weeks. Gave it a try today, and blew shore power breaker when I turned the rotary switch to run. Tried it on the genset, with unit on and breaker for that A/C switched to off. When I turned on the breaker, it pegged the AMP meter, so I quickly shut off the breaker. Several retrys produced the same results. Freon level was fine last summer, but can't check it now since compressor won't run. Any ideas? Is there a hard start coil for cruiseairs like for home A/Cs?

I am ready to call in HVAC professional. Can anyone recommend someone in the Solomons MD area?

Thanks, Bob K

[spcoolin]

Hi Bob...Sorry you are having trouble...

If the unit was not heating well...How long did you run it & what was the seawater temp ?
What was the overboard water flow like ?...Was it full flow ?

What I'm getting at here is if you had full freon charge last summer & no freon leaks....
In the heat mode..These systems rely on transferring heat from the seawater into the cabin...If there is not much heat there to transfer, or you don't have full water flow...You risk freezing up the water coil and causing it to rupture...The freon will then leak out into the seawater and upon a restart (or while sitting) the pressure drop will cause that seawater to enter the freon loop...Also filling the compressor with water and causing a dead short as you describe on your next attempt to run the system...

A Cruisair system (or any marine system) that is reverse cycle and has Manual controls...Should not be run in water temps much below 45* as they don't have the advanced features of digital controls to handle the lower water temps (Digitals are ok down to 40 degree water...but never lower than 38*)

I hope this is not your case, but a quick check would be to take off the "Red" freon service cap (right side facing the unit)...Underneath it you should find a tire valve (push in) let a bit of freon out with a small screwdriver depressing that little pin...If water comes out...There is your problem and the whole unit will need to be replaced along with flushing the refrigerant lines to git rid of the seawater...To be honest...The air handler should be replaced too to be sure none of that seawater remains and contaminates the replacement unit causing it to fail shortly...

If no water squirts out...Then it could just be a start capacitor or relay...But from your description it seems something is shorted...The squirt test will tell quickly if it's what I say...

Steve~

[Jaxfishgyd]

How easy is it to recharge the units ?
Both of my 16,000 units need freon. The split unit needs a charge about once every 14 months or so, the saloon unit at the moment blows cold for a short time then freezes up.
The admiral calls the a/c people, they come out "fix the leak", recharge them and then a yr later it starts all over.
Seems to me if I was to buy the hoses/meter unit, I could recharge them myself for a lot less money......

[spcoolin]

How easy is it to recharge the units ?
Both of my 16,000 units need freon. The split unit needs a charge about once every 14 months or so, the saloon unit at the moment blows cold for a short time then freezes up.
The admiral calls the a/c people, they come out "fix the leak", recharge them and then a yr later it starts all over.
Seems to me if I was to buy the hoses/meter unit, I could recharge them myself for a lot less money......

The answer to that question is...Many answers:

First: You must be EPA certified to buy R-22 (not like R-134a for your car)

Second: EPA is making manufacturers phase out R-22 (like they did with R-12)

Third: The replacement for R-22 (R-410a) will need special equipment to charge a system by Super Heat and the pressures run much higher than they did with R-22...R-410a will not work in a R-22 system.

Forth: Yes there is a "Drop In" replacement (R-417a) that will go into R-22 systems but it is reportedly 17% less efficient in a R-22 system than R-22 would be in the same system.

Yes we will be able to get R-22 for some time yet, but the price is going up almost daily...

Might be best to find the source of your leaks, and fix them once & for all unless you plan on retrofitting to all new equipment that uses the new R-410a.

Steve~

[the kuz]

Thanks, I'll check for water, but I hope that is not the case. Last ran the salon unit for a few minutes at a time in December trying to get it to heat right. Water was still in the upper 40s. Also the other (front cabin) unit was putting out much warmer air (85+). I have a 15lb tank of F-22, and my residential HVAC guy checked it last spring and added a small amount for me. Have only charged the freon (slightly) twice in the 18 years we have owned the boat. A/C ran great all summer, would actually get too cold. Thinking back, I don't think the rotary temp setting was doing much as I could never regulate the interior temp. Didn't mind the meat locker on hot days, but was so cold at night that I only ran the front unit (8K).

Should I try to get a marine specific HVAC firm to take a look, or will any good commercial/residential firm be OK?

Thanks again, Bob K

[Jaxfishgyd]

O U C H !!!!!!

[spcoolin]

Thanks, I'll check for water, but I hope that is not the case. Last ran the salon unit for a few minutes at a time in December trying to get it to heat right. Water was still in the upper 40s. Also the other (front cabin) unit was putting out much warmer air (85+). I have a 15lb tank of F-22, and my residential HVAC guy checked it last spring and added a small amount for me. Have only charged the freon (slightly) twice in the 18 years we have owned the boat. A/C ran great all summer, would actually get too cold. Thinking back, I don't think the rotary temp setting was doing much as I could never regulate the interior temp. Didn't mind the meat locker on hot days, but was so cold at night that I only ran the front unit (8K).

Should I try to get a marine specific HVAC firm to take a look, or will any good commercial/residential firm be OK?

Thanks again, Bob K

Bob...It's usually better to get a Marine A/C guy...He will be more familiar with water cooled units, and how they should perform at any given time of year...He sees how others are running with the same water & air temps.

Plus he will have access to the correct parts such as the rotary T-Stat...Those T-Stats are not an off the shelf item at any commercial refrigeration supply house that a commercial/residential guy would buy from.

To be honest...any time I have worked with, trained, or hired a residential guy...It didn't really work out...First off it takes them a while to get up to speed on the equipment (not much is the same except the theory) and Secondly most have no experience with "anything" on a yacht so that's a learning curve too....They generally end up leaving & going back to what they are comfortable with...

BTW...It's important that T-Stat works properly to avoid things like low pressure in cooling or high pressure in heat...Both can cause problems that are not good for the system.
The T-Stat should not allow cooling in cabin temps any lower than 68 degrees (lower will cause icing & low pressure) and should not allow heating in any higher than about 78 degrees (warmer will cause high pressure cycling)

Steve~

[the kuz]

Steve, thanks. No water at red cap - just gas. If I could figure out where the compressor leads run, I guess I could check resistance to ground and see if the windings are shorted. Working on the A/C (in front of the starboard engine with no overhead hatch) is a real PITA. At this point the local folks I have talked to say sounds like the compressor & no sense replacing the just compressor (est. $1500 total) since system is often crudded up and may damage new compressor anyway. Annapolis cruiseair said that if I remove the unit and bring it in they will check it out, but that most likely a new unit vs rebuild is coming.

My B series engines give a little more working room, but it will be a bad job getting the old one out. I'm told that a new 16K BTU cruisair lists for about $2K, plus installation. Drops in and hooks up to existing lines/wiring/controls. Flush system and live with new gas @ 10% reduced capability. Guess I'll check on line for discount sources. Anyone bought one below list price?

I'm about ready to drive into some place at Solomons, and say, "fix it". I'm getting too old for this. Anyone know a good marine A/C service on the western shore of the Chesapeake? I suppose I should get someone to confirm that the compressor is shot.

Thanks, Bob K

[Buccaneer]

Mine will start, but the owner stateroom only gets slightly warm, whereas all the others get warm-warm. 48 MY, 1983. OEM Cruiseairs. Thoughts?

[spcoolin]

Steve, thanks. No water at red cap - just gas. If I could figure out where the compressor leads run, I guess I could check resistance to ground and see if the windings are shorted. Working on the A/C (in front of the starboard engine with no overhead hatch) is a real PITA. At this point the local folks I have talked to say sounds like the compressor & no sense replacing the just compressor (est. $1500 total) since system is often crudded up and may damage new compressor anyway. Annapolis cruiseair said that if I remove the unit and bring it in they will check it out, but that most likely a new unit vs rebuild is coming.

My B series engines give a little more working room, but it will be a bad job getting the old one out. I'm told that a new 16K BTU cruisair lists for about $2K, plus installation. Drops in and hooks up to existing lines/wiring/controls. Flush system and live with new gas @ 10% reduced capability. Guess I'll check on line for discount sources. Anyone bought one below list price?

I'm about ready to drive into some place at Solomons, and say, "fix it". I'm getting too old for this. Anyone know a good marine A/C service on the western shore of the Chesapeake? I suppose I should get someone to confirm that the compressor is shot.

Thanks, Bob K

Bob,

I agree on the new unit over the compressor change...We don't know what caused this failure, and you had reservations about the reversing valve...
If it is sticking half way (which is common for older 3 knob manual controlled units) you could put a new compressor in just to find out the unit has to come back out for a reversing valve change...That's not cheap either and if not done (and it is sticking) it can quickly ruin the new compressor with hot gas bypassing back onto the valve plate in the compressor.

The new units ship with either 417a (R-22 drop in replacement) or the new 410a which is not compatible with your system...You would need to change the air handler as well, to use the 410a unit.
If you order the 417a unit it comes pre-charged with 417a, but nothing is preventing you from evacuating that 417a from the unit, and going back with R-22 to keep the same efficiency...R-22 will be around for some time yet...Just the price is going up...

Just another note...Now would be the time to upgrade to a unit ready for the digital controls...They really are that much better in keeping temp, protection shut downs, auto fan speeds (the fan can run much slower to reduce noise) and Humidity control while away...
Plus we rarely see reversing valves sticking on the digitally controlled units since the control will energize the valve before restarts which keeps it exercised and oiled from the use...This also equalizes the pressures in the system before starting so that it dosen't start against high head pressure...No more switching off the A/C to switch from shore to ship or back...

Steve~

[Maynard Rupp]

I had a similar problem several years ago. The key bit of info here is that the controls would not control the temp. I had a short in my old 3 knob controls that would immedietly blow the AC circuit breaker. Take your control panel out and lookfor a smoked wire or connection. Maybe, just maybe this could be a simple fix. The wires on these things just slip on and one of mine slipped off and touched another wire. Instant smoke and short for sure.:)

[spcoolin]

Mine will start, but the owner stateroom only gets slightly warm, whereas all the others get warm-warm. 48 MY, 1983. OEM Cruiseairs. Thoughts?

The two things that can cause lack or loss of heating are:

Reduced seawater flow to that unit...Meaning be sure the individual unit is getting good flow, and that a blockage is not causing the water to bypass and go thru the other units.

Slight loss of refrigerant...They will reduce heating output before you notice a lack of cooling.

Steve~

[spcoolin]

I had a similar problem several years ago. The key bit of info here is that the controls would not control the temp. I had a short in my old 3 knob controls that would immedietly blow the AC circuit breaker. Take your control panel out and lookfor a smoked wire or connection. Maybe, just maybe this could be a simple fix. The wires on these things just slip on and one of mine slipped off and touched another wire. Instant smoke and short for sure.:)

That is a possibility Maynard...Good call.
Also check connections at the run & start capacitors.

But most times it seems they just won't try to start when wires/connections are burnt.

Steve~

[spcoolin]

I might add one other place to check connections...

Cruisair in the 3 knob control days, recommended a Power Relay box for all units 20,000 btu or larger to carry the compressor load so that the wire/s going to the 3 knob control were not under heavy load & subject to connections smoking...The box looked like a pump relay box but had a label with the model # "PWX"...The PWX box had basically the same parts as a pump relay but not as many triggers (just one trigger) since it was only getting signal from one control as opposed up to 8 with a pump relay...

Thing is, Hatteras used the PWX box on all units 16'000 BTU & above...So it's possible you have a bad connection or part such as a Triac (solid state relay) in there shorting to ground...The box should be close to the unit below deck and only takes two screws to remove it's cover to inspect wiring & parts.

Steve~

[the kuz]

Just to close this thread out, the problem turned out to be a frozen compressor. I guess after only getting 33 years of service, I should demand a free replacement from Cruiseair. New condensing unit (last 16,000 BTU unit with R-22 in stock at Annapolis) goes in Friday. After much thought, I decided to forego the advantages of new controls and stick with my old 3 knob control. Although it did save some $, the main reason is that I know I can jury rig around most any problem with the control unit if it goes haywire in the middle of no where. I hate having things on the boat that I can't fix. If anyone has a spare 3 knob unit (I assume they are the same for all old style Cruiseairs), I would be happy to purchase it as a spare.

Thanks for all the good advice and help on this issue.

Best Regards, Bob K