Allison Transmission Oil Foaming

[miker29]

My Allison transmissions MH series? in my 1990 52C with 8V92 are foaming. Not foam like you would expect from water in the oil and in fact after a run and the engines are shut down the oil is perfect. The transmissions operate fine - the concern is long term the foaming oil is going to harm the transmissions. I have changed the Hydreco pumps with new from Hydreco, I have replaced all the related suction hoses and cleaned the oil intake screen. This afternoon I ran the engines and engaged the transmissions and the bubbles are in the oil after 5 minutes of engine running. Both transmissions suffer the problem. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[MikeP]

Overfilling can cause foaming. The fact that both are doing the same thing would, in my mind, add to the suspicion that the trannies are overfilled. It's unlikely that both would share the mechanical fault that could cause it.

[miker29]

Engines running - level is right on the full marker on the stick on both. I agree completely with your statement but I can't figure it out.

[saltshaker]

I had the same problem on one of my Allison M20's. Tried everything but never found the cause. Make sure you are checking the oil level after you run and get the gears to temp. The gears will never get to temp in the slip. You may be overfilled and not realize it. Is this a new problem or something you've always had? Only other cause would be if the splash guard inside the gear is not in place. I would only suspect this if the gears were both apart recently.

[yachtsmanbill]

My guess would be that the intake side of the pump is sucking air. Since they were both apart recently, are you sure the hoses and adapters are air tight??? What did you use for a sealant?
If thats the case, Locktite makes a yellow capillary sealent that just needs a drop or two AT THE JOINT while its running. It will suck the stuff in and make it air/oil tight. JMT$W ws

[REBrueckner]

Why not lower the oil level half way between "low" and "full" and see if that changes anything. I'm guessing it will not and that will be a strong signal something is amiss internally.

[miker29]

Thanks for the ideas. I have owned for 2.5 years and had not noticed problem until recently. When I really noticed it was after oil change in engines and trannies - - yes it makes me think I have them overfilled - - I have been checking at the slip, I will take a little oil out and see what happens... Since I have a little over $3,000 into it at this point I am going to have a major DAHHHH moment if thats the problem. I was not aware of the capillary sealant - - that will work well as plan B at the threaded connection to the transmission housing - - -thanks for the help

[miker29]

As I further ponder the problem - - - The question also becomes - - - do the air bubbles present a danger to the long term life of my transmissions?

[Will]

Are you checking the level with the engines running in neutral? Not sure about Allisons, but many marine transmissions have to be checked that way.
Will

[miker29]

Yup - engines running - - usually for 5 -10 minutes before I check.

[yachtsmanbill]

After 5-10 minutes the level will be close... as it heats up the oil level may expand another 1/8" or so on the stick. The object is to get the clutch packs,filter and pump full of oil. ws

[MikeP]

Foaming oil can create a problem, depending on how bad it gets. It is possible for there to be so much foam that the pickup is no longer immersed in oil. If that happens then you have a real problem. However, it is not nearly as serious on a tranny as it is on an engine. On an engine, the lack of oil pressure can destroy it; on a tranny the lack of pressure USUALLY will cause it to simply cease functioning properly since the pressure of the fluid is what causes the clutches to engage. The clutches will quit engaging - meaning it won't go into forward or reverse long before there is insufficient lubricant for the gears and other components.

The usual cause is overfilling in that components that are not supposed to be immersed in oil are spinning and whipping it into the foam.

[Will]

The odd part of this is that both engines have the same anomaly. Have they always been this way or did it start after a specific event like an oil change? Maybe that would solve it.
Will

[Fanfare]

Wrong oil?

[REBrueckner]

I had the same thought as Post # 14....You sure you used straight #40 oil?? Also, if lowering the tranny oil level does not work, check the temperature of each transmission under load at cruise RPM with an infrared thermometer...unlikely both would foam due to high temp and too thin oil but you never know...temp should be about 185 to 190 degrees....

[Trojan]

What goes in the motor goes in my trans.

BILL

[miker29]

Drained the transmissions down to just above the low mark on the dipstick and the problem remains, much the same as before. Yachtsmanbill, do you know the name of the product you described by Loctite? I was at our local auto parts today and could not find. I would like to try it at the threaded pick up connections...

[miker29]

Regular Detroit Diesel 40 weight same as engines in transmissions.

[miker29]

I noticed the problem after an oil change, it may have existed before, I do not know. I keep looking at the large Covington filter wondering if there is some way to install the cartridge improperly that would cause the problem. Also I wanted to add - - the local parts store wanted 1,100 each for the Hydreco pumps - - direct from Hydreco 635 if you need them the guys at Hydreco are very helpful.

[yachtsmanbill]

Drained the transmissions down to just above the low mark on the dipstick and the problem remains, much the same as before. Yachtsmanbill, do you know the name of the product you described by Loctite? I was at our local auto parts today and could not find. I would like to try it at the threaded pick up connections...


Mike... try this on for size... I THINK this is what I used... ws

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:8Ghl1Nnm2F4J:www.drillspot.com/products/333816/Loctite_29041_Pre_Assembled_Capillary_Threadlocker +loctite+products+capillary+sealant&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[wndsr]

Foaming of the oil is a clear indication of air being introduced to the suction side of the pump. Either from a loose/leaking suction hose or the gasket at the strainer bolts. When you changed the oil, did you remove and clean the strainers? First place I would look.

[miker29]

I have decided to remove the entire transmission oil intake system and pipe dope all the connections. I liked the idea of the capillary sealant but was not sure it would be a permanent fix - - and - - the stuff is expensive. Fortunately, my labor is free so the cost will be a few gaskets and some pipe dope. That said, I have to go to NC for a week so the boat project is going to have to wait - - - thanks for the help - - - I will report back the outcome.

[yachtsmanbill]

Make sure you use PTFE pipe dope... its got teflon and an anearobic sealant as well..., performs much like loctite. Dont short change yerself with plain old pipe dope. This stuff seals and STAYS tite!! That capillary sealant IS expensive aint it! ws
http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Loctite_Pipe_Sealant_with_Teflon

[miker29]

Thanks, I was thinking there should be a special pipe dope for that application. I will get the good stuff. Yes, the Loctite was expensive and it might have worked but ultimately there is something loose thats letting air in and its going to bug the crap out of me until I figure it out.

[yachtsmanbill]

Thats cool... be especially aware of the seal on the strainer ! Those are usually the culprit. Also, check your pump pressure at the pump with a decent gage. Ya mite as well set the pressure since the two pumps are new... The pics an Allison MH30... ws

[MikeP]

That wouldn't be my choice of a way to mount a gauge! :)

[yachtsmanbill]

C'mon man... thats BOURDON TUBE technology!! BTW... thats OEM on a Lamborgooni LOL... ws

[MikeP]

Think I'd prefer remote mounting with some suitable hose (aeroquip, whatever) and get rid of those 90's and that rigid piping. Even if the engine vibration doesn't eventually fracture it, it looks like the perfect thing to accidently drop something on or otherwise put pressure on it and snap it off.

That's why they quit doing it on them Lamborgoonies. :)

[yachtsmanbill]

TOUCHE'!! You didnt comment about the pipe being brass (?). Those are actually on a pair of 6-110s that I am looking at for a "retro" repower... gonna get rid of them Mozorotti V12s!! Comments? Questions? Critiscism? Wants? Needs? DESIRES!!!!! ;-)) ws

[miker29]

Yachtsmanbill, sadly I must agree with the other posts re your convoluted pressure guage rig. Bet you never figured you would get so much crap out of one pic!!! I had a DIESEL MECHANIC set my pressure when he was FIXING my air intake problem. I do most myself but my frustration led me to hire a pro - - 110.00/hour - - As you know the problem remains.

[SLIDELLBIGAL]

6-110s Thought I was the last guy on earth running them. Good engines untill they blow or overheat.

Allen

[krush]

LOL at the crap bill gets. His rig worked and was temporary and was probably all he had on hand.

[yachtsmanbill]

You guys are all smokin' shit... that set up was "as found" on a pair of 6-110s in the woods. Like Paul Harvey sez... " and now the rest of the story..."
Some Trinidadian thats been building a sailboat for the last 20 or so years, traded a guy that was scrapping a tugboat his 20 kw Onan for the 110s and Allison MH30s. Having spoke with him, I talked him into a 6-71N for his boat in trade for the 6 bangers. Since I figgered that the sub never runs over displacement speed, they would make a suitable pair of oil burners.
300 HP at 1600 turns and no turbos seems like a logical alternative to the Lambergoonies in there now. The 110s are nothing but bigger 71s. A mere afternoon for an inframe overhaul and an extra 2000 cubic feet of space in the ER makes sense to me... now to get them valve covers chromed...
HEY KRUSH ! Follow the instructions this year... "light fuse and GET AWAY" LOL... ws

[yachtsmanbill]

6-110s Thought I was the last guy on earth running them. Good engines untill they blow or overheat.

Allen


Welcome aboard Allen... Ppat and I were discussing yer moniker..
SLIDELL BIG AL or SLIDELL BI GAL or SLIDELL BIG GAL... glad ya came out to say hi... Now, give me your take on the 110s. I know they ran fro '53-65 and were supposed to be a happy medium between the 71s and the 149s... I happen to be fond of 6 bangers... I need a 6-71 with a 2:1 gear to trade the indian for his sailboat. ws

[krush]

Trivia for ya:


The Detroit Diesel Series 110, with 110 cubic inches displacement per cylinder, was introduced in 1945 as more-powerful alternative to the existing Series 71 engines. It was used in a variety of applications, including construction equipment and power generation. The most popular use was in the Budd RDC self-powered rail car. It was also heavily used in Euclid construction machinery. In 1951 a marine version was also introduced.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_110

Just note, it's wikipedia so not always 100% accurate

edit: and from that wiki link, 110 parts are still made, apparently http://www.wwwilliams.com/distribution_dd.cfm

[Avenger]

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_110

Just note, it's wikipedia so not always 100% accurateYou're right. The article claims they share injectors with the 71 series. I can promise you they do not share injectors with anything. 6-110 injectors are a type all their own.

[SLIDELLBIGAL]

Welcome aboard Allen... Ppat and I were discussing yer moniker..
SLIDELL BIG AL or SLIDELL BI GAL or SLIDELL BIG GAL... glad ya came out to say hi... Now, give me your take on the 110s. I know they ran fro '53-65 and were supposed to be a happy medium between the 71s and the 149s... I happen to be fond of 6 bangers... I need a 6-71 with a 2:1 gear to trade the indian for his sailboat. ws

Ok so your going to give me a complex about my name first day on the board,lol. 6-110s were great motors, we ran them up to 1800, no problem, I had a little 45 foot single screw tug with one that I sent from New Orleans to Norfolk with a 135 foot barge and back, took them 34 days. I see you have the roots blowers, they are much better than the squirrel cage blowers. Tons more torque than the 8-71. They are going to burn fuel, but nothings for free. if I was you I would go with a pair of 6-71s and turn them 2000. It don't look like your in a hurry anyway.

Allen

[yachtsmanbill]

No complex intended LOL !! We just get so many web crawling porno doo das here that it kinda refreshing to get a new "real" member...



I bought my 58 TC from the Oustalet family from Jennings La.. she sank at their home after Rita in '05. The 12-71Ns do real well but are kinda tired and take up sooo much room with them being below the salon... 3406s would be great too, but no fundage for a project like that... ws

[MikeP]

"Just note, it's wikipedia so not always 100% accurate"

I'd suggest that if it's Wikipedia chances are it's not even remotely accurate. I've read so much stuff there that is flat wrong that it's pretty dismaying that it even exists. I tried to revise an article about recording equipment and the "author" kept changing it back to his personal views even though I listed several references, including recorded interviews with the people directly involved.

Anybody can write or, in theory, change an article. However, if the previous writer doesn't like your change, he/she can just change it back. Then you can end up in a "change war" with both parties changing it back and forth. This ends whenever one of you just says, "the heck with it" and gives up.

Trouble is, if you don't personally know the subject, when you read an article you have no idea if the article is accurate, misinformation, wishful thinking, or "changed history." There is a good bit of "changed history" which IMHO, is the worst thing about it.

[miker29]

Results - I had too much work work to get done so had to cancel trip to NC. That meant work in the engine room. As previously discussed I pulled the entire intake and used Permatex Thread Sealant on ALL connections. Problem is exactly the same. Could the new hoses be pressure hoses and therefore not designed for suction? Those gears are whirling around in there is that enough to cause the foaming? I will check with Hydreco on Monday because I am running out of things to do at this point. As stated, she goes fine, good response, I rock her back and forth at the dock no problems. Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.

[miker29]

This is really clutching at straws - but - is it possible to install the filter in the Convington housing for the transmission filter? Could this cause the bubbles? Like I said, clutching at straws now...

[miker29]

Meant to say install the filter incorrectly....

[miker29]

Conclusion: With the help of Bugsy, the resolution appears to be using 15-40 weight Rotella instead of Detroit Diesel straight 40W. I have not run her in the ocean yet but the symptoms at the dock and up to temperature are significantly reduced by the conversion to the 15-40, some tiny bubbles but nothing like the foaming I was getting before.

[Bugsy]

I'll add to that Miker, if I can.

I changed to SAE 40 as recommended on this site (and elsewhere) for both engines and transmissions. I then experienced foaming in the oil of both transmissions. I removed the oil. I changed the filters. I re-installed the 40 weight. I still had foaming. (Duh!)
I removed and cleaned the inline strainers. I still had foaming.
And so---I went back to 15W-40 --FOR THE STBD. TRANSMISSION ONLY---and PRESTO!! No foaming---on the starboard side.

Allison did NOT (unlike DD) recommend against 15W-40 and under the circs, one might reasonably conclude that my transmissions do not like straight 40.

[Traveler 45C]

Make sure you use PTFE pipe dope... its got teflon and an anearobic sealant as well..., performs much like loctite. Dont short change yerself with plain old pipe dope. This stuff seals and STAYS tite!! That capillary sealant IS expensive aint it! ws
http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Loctite_Pipe_Sealant_with_Teflon

That link shows 2 of what looks like the same product. They both have the same product number, the only difference is one of them is 6 mil and the other is 50 mil. What is that specifying, the viscosity?

[yachtsmanbill]

Chemistry 101... LOL... Those are all 50 millileter tubes. the one is for a SIX pack and they are from different distributors. Ahhh. Now wheres the bird... ws

[mike]

Regular Detroit Diesel 40 weight same as engines in transmissions.

FWIW, I use Delo-100 40wt for both engines and trans, and never had a foaming problem. For future reference for others, was the “Detroit” oil brand the same as used in the past? Could it be a "new" refining additive in your oil? Are the filters the same, are you using spin-on, or canister filters?