Air Conditioning Questions

[Sparky1]

Now that gas has gotten down to a reasonable price, I'm planning to get a lot more use out of my 41DC this summer if she doesn't sell. I've had problems with freon leaking down in the AC system, and now I can't even find anyone who will recharge it. Given it's the original old system, I'm thinking of an upgrade.

The original system includes two units, one unit is dedicated to the master SR with one air handler, and the other to the salon with two. There is no HVAC in either head or the forward SR, and I'd like to change that. Every other boat I've owned prior to this one had such a system that allowed venting into smaller areas. They were a heck of a lot quieter than these older wall mounted units as well.

Anybody been here, done this?

[krush]

How long does it take to leak down? Fix the leak will be cheaper....it shoudln't be too hard to find.

[TedZ]

Go to NAPA and buy a can of AC dye and put it in. It gets sucked in on the suction side. You will see it don't worry. Then fix it. Most times you can tighten fittings. If not you need to have the system evacuated by an AC guy.

Ted

[Boatsb]

Ted the problem is the R12 and 134A do not mix nor will napa have the R12. 134A will also not fit the r12 valves without adapters.

[mobilemn1]

Sparky,

I have a universal license for AC systems. chances are you are still running refrigerant 22. There are several ways to check for the leaks. They make a sniffer that detects minute leaks, and if the leak is significant enough you can take dawn dishwashing liquid mixed with water in a spray bottle. Make it good and soapy and spray all the fittings, coils, and compressor tubing. It may not be instantanious so just take your time. As you check each fitting it wouldn't hurt to snug just a little bit on the fittings. If you notice any silver soldered joints, double check them as they are usually suspect. Also spray the condensing coils good. I would go this way first without knowing more about your system

[Sparky1]

How long does it take to leak down? Fix the leak will be cheaper....it shoudln't be too hard to find.Last time I had it charged was about two years ago, but even then I had problems almost immediately afterward. The only way the AC would work was if I set the thermostat to its lowest setting, allowing the compressor to run constantly. If I backed it down a bit, it would kick the breaker every time the compressor restarted.

Last summer, it would freeze up when I let it run for any length of time (only stayed on the boat one night), but I finally figured out how to properly clean the fins on the backside of the coils. They were some kind of nasty and almost totally blocked. Unfortunately it still froze up even after cleaning, so I'm assuming I'm back to being low on freon.

I contacted an outfit that supposedly specializes in marine and RV AC, but they wouldn't recharge my system. They said it would be cheaper to replace it ( which I don't believe) due to the expense of the older refrigerant. All that aside, it really would be nice to have a quieter system that would cool the heads and the forward stateroom.

[Boatsb]

Too bad you are not in the area. I have most everything needed to top it off it it's not leaking or to fix it and recharge if it is. Unless there is major issues with the system it is not cheaper to replace it. If you do tear stuff out I am looking for a 8k btu evaporator for my stateroom. I already have the 16K compressor and need the second evaporator to get back to right.

[krush]

Scott, it's most likely R22, and then next would be r12 (but probably not). Sparkyz, what does it use?

I have a sniffer and all the crap to fix it and I'm even going home this weekend. I can snag it all. Currently I'm living near Greenville SC.

Freezing can be cause by dirty coils and/or low refrig charge. If the compressor runs and it used to blow cold air, sounds like everything is in working order. People are just too lazy to fix things right anymore--and it's tough to guarantee your work when u fix old stuff.

[Sparky1]

Scott, I actually misspoke about the configuration of the AC systems on my boat. There is one wall mounted unit in the master and one in the salon which operate on a single compressor. The other wall unit in the salon is tied into a separate unit which has never worked since I owned the boat.

When I had that tech service the system a couple of years ago, I had him check the other unit. Apparently it had been scavenged for parts, so it really needs to be replaced anyway despite the fact the one unit does a pretty good job at keeping the boat cool. With that in mind, that one wall unit may be what you need as I'm assuming it's an 8K BTU. I'll certainly keep you in mind if I end up replacing these systems.

[Boatsb]

it is 22. 12 was for freezers. I get dyslectic at times but I mean well.

I have a green can of freon sitting in the garage and the manifold and gauges too.

[Sparky1]

Scott, it's most likely R22, and then next would be r12 (but probably not). Sparkyz, what does it use?

I have a sniffer and all the crap to fix it and I'm even going home this weekend. I can snag it all. Currently I'm living near Greenville SC.

Freezing can be cause by dirty coils and/or low refrig charge. If the compressor runs and it used to blow cold air, sounds like everything is in working order. People are just too lazy to fix things right anymore--and it's tough to guarantee your work when u fix old stuff.I hate to be dumb, but I honestly don't remember if it's R12 or R22. They're the original old blue units. Funny, I was in Greenville two week-ends ago and will be just outside of Asheville this week-end at Chimney Rock for Easter. You should join us for the sunrise service on Sunday assuming you're not a Godless heathen. :)

Grab your stuff and come on over NEXT week-end, and I'll make it worth your while... assuming you can fix me up. :D

[krush]

I'll bring it all down from VA. I'm gonna be round these parts (SC) for a few months so we'll arrange something.

[REBrueckner]

An ac guy can usually change out old R22 for current 134A refrigerant...its not a big deal and is FAR less expensive than recharging with used R22 that some guys save from old systems....

[SportFishCruising]

[QUOTE=Sparky1;124265]... assuming you're not a Godless heathen. :)/QUOTE]
... "not that there is anything wrong with that" Sienfeld, espisode #42

[67hat34c]

Randy, We replaced our ac system about 5 years ago. Had it custom built from a company in stuart, Ocean Breeze. They have a web site. They were far cheeper than anyone else and made a quality product using quality components. They will make you what ever you want.

Our stipulation is that we did not want to cut any new holes so new evaporators had to hook up and run the same as the original ones.

Self contained units you can install yourself but split systems have to be installed by an AC guy.

Scott if you need an evaporator, get them to build you one.

[Boatsb]

Steve I am looking for the budget one. Priced around "free" or I am not going to upgrade the working system so quick. Now it it was not working I would be a bit more motivated.

FYI 30 Lbs of r22 is about $150. If I had to recharge the whole boat, The 58, My boat, Steves boat and Kents I would still have some left over.

[krush]

An ac guy can usually change out old R22 for current 134A refrigerant...its not a big deal and is FAR less expensive than recharging with used R22 that some guys save from old systems....

In my experience (and I've been messing with this stuff for awhile)...

R12: used in old cars and small things like fridge
r134a: replaced R12

R22: used in large A/C, heatpumps, icemakers, etc
r410a: used in most new large home A/C systems to replace r22

[Sparky1]

An ac guy can usually change out old R22 for current 134A refrigerant...its not a big deal and is FAR less expensive than recharging with used R22 that some guys save from old systems....I wondered about that as I changed out the R22 in my old '72 Blazer for 134. All it took was a couple of new fittings I bought at an auto parts place and taking it to the local Chevy dealer. I assume it wouldn't be any big deal to do the same on the boat AC other than someone having to bring the proper equipment to the boat.

Steve, I'll check out the place you mentioned, but I'm not sure why it would take an AC guy to do what I want to do. The last few Sea Rays I owned had units with rotary compressors, and there were air ducts connected to hoses throughout the boat. I think I could get away with a 16K and an 8K (or maybe 2) to do the whole thing. Those were whisper quiet compared to what I have now.

Krush, I think we still have each other's phone numbers, but I'll PM you mine again just in case. Wanna go a little farther south down to the 58 and try your hand at a 12V71N? I mean you're already going to be in the neighborhood and all. :D

[krush]

I wondered about that as I changed out the R22 in my old '72 Blazer for 134. All it took was a couple of new fittings I bought at an auto parts place and taking it to the local Chevy dealer. I assume it wouldn't be any big deal to do the same on the boat AC other than someone having to bring the proper equipment to the boat.

Except you were changing from r12 to to r134a. R22 is most likely what your boat has in it. I got about 50 lbs of it, don't worry.

[ThirdHatt]

That system is R22, or at least it was from the factory. I had the same setup in my old 1967 41TC and I used to have to charge it up every season or more. I keep a 30lb can of R22 and a set of guages on board just so that I can recharge in 10 minutes at any time and have ice-cold A/C again. 30lbs lasts a LONG time because I had been using the same can for 6-8yrs. Luckily I have not had to use it at all since I got the 58YF.

The original setup for the 41 was for a 16k btu split system just to cool/heat the salon, and a second, smaller system split between the forward and master staterooms. I an quite surprised to hear that your one functional compressor is split between the salon and the master. Are you positive? Someone must have bubba-ized it because the salon needs the most cooling (dedicated 16k btu) and to split that with the master doesn't sound like they are matched and could be a problem. A 16k btu compressor cannot run a 16k btu AND a 8 k btu air handler properly. The A/C experts here can elaborate further. I believe the master has an 8k btu air handler and the forward stateroom has a 4k btu, both originally run off a 12k btu compressor which is a perfect match.

One thing to look at is the flare fittings on the copper freon lines that connect at the compressor. That was the sourse of my leak as when I replaced the compressor because I didn't do too well on making the flares. This is where experience would have helped, but I learned as I went along.

That guy telling you it would be too expensive to recharge w/R22 is full of it. You shouldn't have to bring in friends from out-of-state just to charge your A/C, it's just not that big of a deal. Any A/C guy with a set of guages and a tank of R22 can have you charged up in 20 minutes. I think it will probably cost you somehwere around $200. Have him put some dye in so that you will be able to find and fix the leak next time. The other option is to do like I did and just invest in a can of R22 and a set of guages and do it yourself. It really is very easy and I would be glad to walk you through the process step-by-step over the phone if you like. It will only cost you the couple hundred ONCE, it's free after that just costing you a few minutes of your time. Then you can charge up your friend's boats when needed as well! Just think of all the free bottles of Goose!

Hope this helps.

[Boatsb]

Wait a second. I drove out to clearwater, Charged up 3 AC units on freebird and gave Randy a bottle of goose. Did I screw up here?

By the way have you fired them up lately?

[Sparky1]

The original setup for the 41 was for a 16k btu split system just to cool/heat the salon, and a second, smaller system split between the forward and master staterooms. I an quite surprised to hear that your one functional compressor is split between the salon and the master. Are you positive? Someone must have bubba-ized it because the salon needs the most cooling (dedicated 16k btu) and to split that with the master doesn't sound like they are matched and could be a problem. A 16k btu compressor cannot run a 16k btu AND a 8 k btu air handler properly. The A/C experts here can elaborate further. I believe the master has an 8k btu air handler and the forward stateroom has a 4k btu, both originally run off a 12k btu compressor which is a perfect match....


Hope this helps.Yes, that helps. Thanks.

As for the original AC set up, as far as I can see this boat never had an air handler in the forward stateroom. Was your 41 a DC or a TC? Could be the difference.

No doubt the salon would require the most BTU's to cool, and that would account for why there are two air handlers in the salon. I just assumed there was originally a 16,000BTU unit split between the one handler in the salon and the other in the master. The other handler would be hooked to a 8,000BTU for a total of 16K in the salon and 8K in the master. That way you'd have a choice of running both systems when extra cooling was required in the salon. That would make sense to me.

And Scott, as you may recall, I gave you a nice dingy for you efforts on the 58 in Florida which were very much appreciated. Not rubbing anything in, but I just want everybody else to know I'm not a total cheepskate. :D

I'll make you the same offer I made krush if you want to take a trip to TN. Meanwhile I think I'll start looking for some gauges and a tank of freon. I wonder if I can blow myself up doing this? God I hope so! LOL

[67hat34c]

Randy you only need ac guy if using split system, conensing unit with separate evaporating units like my set up. Of course if you have R22, guage set and a vacuum pump then why not DIYS.

[stormchaser]

I have found that one of the most common failure points is the coils in the condensing units. It's much more of a problem on diesel boats. I suspect the diesel fumes/solvents slowly erode away the very thin metal of the tiny little coil tubes? One thing that has worked for me for small/slow leaks is "stop leak". Depending on what type of refrigerant you have, you may evenbe able to get a can of it at you FLAPS.

[thoward]

Get a set of guages, a dye kit and a bottle of r22. Pour the dye in the fill hose and attach to the r22 bottle. You hook the blue side to the connector with the big tube and the red side to the small tube. There is a valve at the connectors which needs to be moved 1/2 turn like you are tightning a nut. Turn the r22 bottle upside down and turn it on. Fire up the AC unit and bleed in r22 in slow bursts with the blue knob. The blue side should read 37 degrees +/- a little. Once you are done and the AC is running you can inspect the connections with the black light and yellow glasses.

[Sparky1]

Thanks for the info Todd. You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I was thinking you had to have some sort of license to buy R22. If not, where would be the best place to purchase it and the necessary equipment?

[stormchaser]

Even if there is a license for it, if it's as easy to get as the R12 license...ANYONE can get it. When I was a teenager, the R12 system in my old beater needed a recharge about every 6-8 months...then they made it so that you had to have a license/certificate to get it...I got it with EASE...seriously, any idiot could have passed

[TopHattandTails]

I'm no AC guy. But when my split system kept freezing up I immediately thought it was undercharged and needed a shot of freon as well. Not the case at all. The AC guy (a marine AC guy) tested it and just about fell over laughing at the HIGH pressure. The PO must have thought the same and every time it wouldn't cool - he must have shot it another charge. Absolute wrong thing in my case. He actually bled quite a bit off. He said there was water in the line and would need a total blow down and refill, but it seemed to work almost fine for the rest of the season - so I ignored the blow down... Still freezes occasionally (95 degrees and 90% humidity), but a quick rest and we're back off to the freezer zone. We'll see what happens this season...

[thoward]

Thanks for the info Todd. You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I was thinking you had to have some sort of license to buy R22. If not, where would be the best place to purchase it and the necessary equipment?

A true good ole boy would never ask such a question. Yes you need a license to purchase but if you know anybody in the bussiness slide them a bottle of WHISKEY, as all southern gentlemen should drink, they can hook you up.

[krush]

The blue side should read 37 degrees +/- a little. Once you are done and the AC is running you can inspect the connections with the black light and yellow glasses.

Keep telling people that....it'll keep the A/C guys in business!

You need a license to buy r22. You are also required to properly recover and dispose of use refrigerant....the epa says so.

[stormchaser]

Let me say one thing about DIY A/C work or hiring the local semi-trained bubba to do it....the PO did exactly that to save a buck...and it cost ME $15,000! I somehow doubt his savings were greater than my cost. Unless it is a SIMPLE fix, like tightening a fitting, leave it to the experts unless you are willing to have a RUDE awakening when you have to dump many BOAT units unto fixing your screwup.

[Boatsb]

DIY is a general term. Some people have skills and some don't. Not only did I fix the AC in the boat that the professional installed but never worked ( a bad clickson on the compressor temp) when three companies could not figure it out. I also upgraded the AC in my house from end to end except for the ducting which was fine.

When I finished the house job by hiring a guy to do the duct board attachment to the new unit because I needed about 2 foot of material and could not buy a small Qty. The pro's commented on the way the job was done and the quality of the installation. I also made fittings to step up and down the copper instead of just crushing them on and brazing or soldering. All in all I have had a year of use for ac and heat and it has been flawless. Oh yeah I do not have a license Krush.

[stormchaser]

OK, clearly I did not mean someone of your skills. Of course DIY is fine if you actually know what you are doing...I mean if you don't know...don't guess or "try" fooling wit it too much.

[Boatsb]

Storm I had to do it but I am not without experience as I migh have made it seem.

My father had a wholesale food distribution company and I had to keep the walk ins running. I also had the help of my Step father who is an HVAC engineer.

Along with that the 43DC next to me was owned by a refrigeration engineer who was above decks reminding me of the basics as I probed the system that was not running. I was the recipient of a lot of assistance from my friends and family. Especially when I ran heat load calcs for the house and determined the correct unit I would need for it. DIY is probably a misnomer. More like DIWYF (do it with your friends).

[krush]

DIY is a general term. Some people have skills and some don't............. Oh yeah I do not have a license Krush.

And some people think they have the skills/knowledge when they don't. It sounds like you know your stuff, but there has been much advice on here about all kinds of things that is not correct.

The license is just an exercise done by the EPA. Study some, pass the test, good to go.