NADA Used Boat Guide

[Motivator]

Has anyone had experience with using the NADA guide to determine a fair purchase price? In other words, taking the listed value and using it to make the initial offer. And then how successful were you?

If the guide is correct, most used boats on the market are drastically over priced by 50% or more. Paying too much is always a bad idea and in today’s economic condition, paying too much may cause a great deal of hardship if due to some unforeseen situation the boat has to be unloaded in a hurry.

Does anyone know of a free way to determine what used boats have sold for? I know I could ask a broker but don’t know if the answer could be trusted.

Thanks,

[Dave Phipps]

The NADA guide is not a reliable source for larger boats. My experience is that the data are too far and few between to be valid for computer depreciation programs, and boat condition is too critical a factor to make sense of the few sales that do occur.

There is no short cut to determine values....each boat is different and condition, the single most important variable, varies too widely. As a starting point, you might try BUCVALUE.com, although you should be aware that it's data is imported from "dealer sales data." However, if you carefully research the deficiencies found by your surveyor, and understand what the remedies might realistically cost, and subtract them from the BUC value numbers, you should have a realistic starting place. Further caculations will be necessary based on the economy and the individual circumstances of the seller and interest level of the buyer. Be aware that lenders are very conservative in the amount they're willing to advance.

Good hunting.....

dave

[saltshaker]

I second Dave's remarks. NADA values are rarely even close for big boats. They tend to be very low. It is tough to figure out what any boat is worth in this economy. There is a lot of inventory and very few serious and capable buyers. Don't be afraid of a low ball offer but if you find the boat that is right for you and the price seems fair, go for it. There is more to the value of a boat than the price. Better off paying a bit more for the right boat than less for that "good deal."

[Vincentc]

I used the NADA guide when shopping last summer and met quite a bit of resistance from brokers to my thoughts regarding market value. However, I obtained a list of sale prices and when I compared it to the guide it appeared to be consistent with those sales. I bought a 43 DC using an offer based upon NADA guide prices. In my experience it was the most helpful price guide, though it is only a guide and condition is critical to any evaluation.

Regards,
Vincent

[Canuck Dennis]

To determine the true value of your boat, list it for sale and whatever someone will actually pay you for it is what your boat is worth.
That's how a free market economy is supposed to work.

[Dave Phipps]

I subscribed to the NADA large boat book for about 3 years. The values shown bore little resemblence to the actual sales prices for the 53 Classic Motoryachts during that time period. It is worth asking a reputable salesman to research the recent sales data reported on the model that you're interested in...but the catch is that you can't know the condition of the vessel or the personal circumstances of the seller or buyer, both of which are fundemental factors in the price paid.

[SeaEric]

I have earned my living for the last 20 years selling used power boats. I used to know what boats were worth. Today, I have no idea. The book values mean absolutely nothing. The BUC book numbers have meant nothing for over a decade.

Generally speaking, boats today are worth approximately 70% of what they sold for 2 years ago. 60% of what they sold for 3 years ago, and maybe 80% of Jan to June 2008 numbers. July to Dec 2008 sales were fewer and prices were down. Today's values can be judged most accurately on what has actually sold since Jan 2009, bearing in mind that many of these sales are repos and owners motivated by duress. Buyers are brutal negotiators right now, and for good reason.

The good (or bad) news is, and I hesitate to say this, there seems to be a glimmer of hope that the market has begun to turn around. Baby steps mind you, but it seems to be happening - s l o w l y.

So all of you cheap skates that want to steal a nice boat- you better get on with it.

By the way, there is almost no market for old junkers that need work. If its a project boat that you seek, you can have your pick for very little $$.

[MikeP]

But we all know you can't trust those damn brokers! :)

I follow a sports car site that frankly seems to be very similar to the Hatt market. There are plenty of crappy cars that are available for "a steal" but if you buy one of these, you will end up spending a lot more than you would to just buy a good one in the first place. IMHO (!) the best thing is to buy a boat (car) at a FAIR price that is in excellent condition, rather than trying to get some great deal. The great deal will end up costing more money in the long run.

I have to add, Eric and Peter Atlas (of Long Island Marine Group) are two of the most honest guys I have ever met...trust them completely!

[SeaEric]

But we all know you can't trust those damn brokers! :)


Yes indeed. Keep that fact in mind ALWAYS!

[Passages]

[QUOTE=SeaEric;122024]There seems to be a glimmer of hope that the market has begun to turn around.

So all of you cheap skates that want to steal a nice boat- you better get on with it.
QUOTE]




Eric - Please, with all due respect - and I mean it - Isn't that the oldest sales line around? "Buy now or you'll miss this opportunity".

I see it a bit differently. Buyers can continue to be savage bottom feeders and they know it. The equity market is half where it was 18 months ago, job insecurity is rampant, banks have (rightly so) tightened lending standards, diesel hit $5/gal last summer and could return to those levels at a moments notice, finding reasonable insurance and dockage is becoming a greater challange every year . Folks are holding on to cash "just in case" and the truely affluent probably don't want to be burdened with the maintenance associated with an older powerboat, even a Hatteras.

Yes boats are still selling, but how can a seller reasonably expect to get a "fair" price when there are so many repo or distress sales out there? I know the the usual broker come back that all distress sales are maintenance differred 'dogs", and while many are, there are some nice vessels as well.

Against that backdrop, I see no urgency to rush into a deal.

I predict the sharp loss in boat values will taper somewhat, perhaps even flatten, but we will never see values return to where they were in the good old days of 2007.

It's kind of like buying a computer - the longer you wait, the better the deal. That said, if you wait too long, you may never get out on the water.

[captddis]

Jim,
Your offer was accepted, what did you buy?

[SeaEric]

Yes, with all due respect back at ya- I don't plan on selling anyone on this forum a boat, nor have I ever since I have been participating here. So from that standpoint, my opinions are not a sales pitch. What I say here is from the heart. If you disagree, I have no problem.

What I have to offer is based upon my experiences, both past and current. Please bear in mind that although the market for boats does ebb and flow, people's desire to go boating remains constant.

And you are not entirely wrong in what you have to say. There are nice boats out there at great bargains being sold by caring owners that have maintained them beautifully. They merely wish to sell and the market dictates the lower prices.

I am merely suggesting the same as I have said all along (like a broken record!): that if you find a nice boat at a good deal, you should buy it. And then go boating.

[Passages]

Jim,
Your offer was accepted, what did you buy?


24' Cobalt for fishing & watersports. Ask was 34,900, sold for $25k.

Still looking for an appropriate mothership. (45-53 Hatteras, Viking or Post)

[Maynard Rupp]

I have been looking at 42' LRC Hats lately. I had one member tell me that those boats have been on the market for the same prices since 2000. I also have been told that none have sold in 2 or more years. I think this senario applies to many boats. An owner decides to sell and looks up what everybody else is selling theirs for, evaluates his boat based on the plusses or minuses he sees on the other for sale boats. He then lists his for about the same price as all the others. If, as is the case with the 42 LRC, no one has changed their price for 9 years, WOW, and you price yours with theirs, yours can sit there for the next 9 years with the rest of them. When fuel was $5.00/gallon, many Hat owners wished they owned an LRC of some size. But those folks already owned a big Hat that they couldn't sell. This meant they wern't real buyers but did force the prices up on the LRCs. Most of these boats have seen a lot of use since those old prices. I see why brokers tear their hair out.:(

[Sparky1]

I predict the sharp loss in boat values will taper somewhat, perhaps even flatten, but we will never see values return to where they were in the good old days of 2007.

It's kind of like buying a computer - the longer you wait, the better the deal. That said, if you wait too long, you may never get out on the water.You lost me with the computer analogy as we all know they are going to be outdated a couple of months after you purchase a new one. You can't give away a used computer.

The only way that used boat prices will not make a comeback will be if all the manufacturers go out of business or drastically reduce their prices on new boats. I don't see either of those things happening. I would also think the financing aspect will no longer be an issue once all this bank mess gets straightened out.

To join in on the predictions bandwagon, I'd say if we're not at the bottom of the barrel on pricing right now, we will be by the end of this year.

[Passages]

You lost me with the computer analogy as we all know they are going to be outdated a couple of months after you purchase a new one. You can't give away a used computer.

The only way that used boat prices will not make a comeback will be if all the manufacturers go out of business or drastically reduce their prices on new boats. I don't see either of those things happening. I would also think the financing aspect will no longer be an issue once all this bank mess gets straightened out.

To join in on the predictions bandwagon, I'd say if we're not at the bottom of the barrel on pricing right now, we will be by the end of this year.

Hello Mr Bird,
You are correct, you can't give away a used computer. I was talking new, like the 386 I bought in the early 1990's for around $3000 with subsequent better units less costly. The best PC in the house was bought a month ago for $470.

You are also correct about financing loosening up a bit, but only for those with verified income snd reasonable credit.

Point I'm making is I just don't see the recreational marine market becoming healthy in the near future. It's sad, but folks who stick with this hobby are the few who are truely passionate about it.

You know, nuts like us.

[Sparky1]

Hey, you're talking about new computers vs used boats here. As for credit loosening up for used boat buyers, I don't think the "no questions asked" type home loans ever made it into the marine industry except for maybe the HELOC angle. With that in mind, I don't see much changing as for qualifying for a boat loan. However, given the numbers of boat loans banks are surely eating right now, it may still be a trick to get a competitive rate on extended terms.