VacuFlush on 32v

[egaito]

Just talked with SeaLand, and the tech confirmed that their 24v version will run fine on our 32v boats.

Anyone need pump motors? I've got two 12v systems that I'm either going to run with a converter, or replace with 24v if I can recover a small portion of the cost of changing them out.

Also, fwiw, the tech told me it would be fine to reduce the outlet and have the VF push waste through the 1" hose the GM's use.

[SKYCHENEY]

So to clarify, you can run their 24v motors with a 32v supply? And, you can push, but not put vacuum on the old 1" waste line? Is that correct?

If the toilets will run on 32v, I wonder why they say that they don't make a 32v unit anymore. It sure seems like they would want to keep that part of the market if possible. All it would take is tag that reads something like: Input voltage 20-38v.

[Diver Down]

A couple of months ago we installed three 24V vacuflush pumps, all wired into the original 32V head circuits. They've been working fine.

Southern Comfort, 1977 58YF
Recently relocated to Ocean Marine in Portsmouth, VA

[carolinacoast]

Ed or others -

My first post. Miss Molly is our 53ED and is based in Savannah. I am beginning the process of replacing the GM in the mid berth and aft cabin . I'm being told by sealand and their dealer through Environmental Marine that if I dont step down the voltage from 32v to 24v (or 12) that the warranty will be void. they seem to require an inspection after the install is done to certify the warranty. I welcome suggestions. thanks in advance.

Mal Hill

[SKYCHENEY]

Did you already buy the VF? If not, and you want a 32v head, go with the Raritan Atlantes. They make a 32v version and you don't have to mess with vac tanks, remote pumps, etc. It's all contained in the toilet itself. I've had mine for 3 years now and not one problem.

If you're sold on VF, I'd follow their instructions and step down the voltage or go with 120v units and run them off of your inverter.

[Angela]

I recently had a "lovely" conversation with EM about warranty - I could "hear" his eyes rolling - I only called to ask for price on a very specific part (by part number) and got a lecture on how unqualified I am and that I should really leave this up to the professionals (gee, maybe I should get back in my galley and bake cookies, instead!). Basically, they do not want the consumer installing these systems. He told me that if I put in the vacuum generator that there would be no warranty. So, I asked him, if I replaced my existing S-pump and screw it to the floor myself and install new hoses while I'm at it, then there is no warranty on that brand new $800 pump? He said there would be a warranty for that. Then, what's the difference? He couldn't answer that one.

What is a little difficult to get a hold of, because it's their only document not available online and it does not come with the other materials with the new head, is the installation guide which contains all the do's and don'ts. I finally got it from Sealand Technology, directly, in pdf form. Let me know if you want it. It's good guide, and it's SIMPLE - nice big print with lot of pictures like an elementary reader! There is no Great University of Vacuum Toiletry from which one must graduate to install these, though speaking with the distributor, they'd like for you to believe that.

[SKYCHENEY]

So, why deal with a company that treats you like that. There is plenty of competition in marine toilets. I guess I just don't understand this loyalty to VF. Is it so much better than everything else that you're just willing to put up with that type of customer support?

[MikeP]

I concur with Sky's advice. In reading all the threads here re VF, I can't see a single reason to consider one but I can see many reasons NOT to consider one.

[captddis]

So, why deal with a company that treats you like that. There is plenty of competition in marine toilets. I guess I just don't understand this loyalty to VF. Is it so much better than everything else that you're just willing to put up with that type of customer support?


My dealings with raritan are usually much worse than Angela's dealing with EV. Try to get warranty from Raritan. When they had the bright idea to mount the circut boards on top of the lectra sans, they had to know the boards would fail. When I wanted to remote mount the boards in a dry spot, they got nasty and said that it would void the warranty. Oh yea the ridiculously expensive timers for the lectra san that would fail yearly were a real treat too.

[carolinacoast]

Wow. thanks for the quick and detailed replies. Ang makes the right point - if the pump and tank are working its just seals after that. Ang - what did you do about voltage and hoses? I began the path to VF because of comments from other owners boats I have been on both sail and power. also reading threads here for a while. I've spent enough time with Jabsco before GM. I haven't bought the VF yet, and will look at the Raritan more closely.

[ThirdHatt]

I agree with Sky and MikeP. After reading so many threads just on this site about vacuflush troubles with pump cycling, etc I wonder why would anyone bother.

Lectra-San technology was impressive for a while back in the day decades ago, but Raritan can hardly be faulted for support of those old devices these days. The design of the new Atlantes heads is so well thought out and fool-proof that warranty service really should be almost non-existant. They have designed it so that in a bind you can reverse the polarity momentarily to unclog ANYTHING! I know this because somehow a stray SS screw ended up falling into my Atlantes and locking the bronze pump gear up! After a simple polarity reverse bump, the head spit the screw out and it was again ready for business! That was the first week of install and now more than 6 months later never a problem. I highly recommend the Raritan Atlantes.

[carolinacoast]

did you go with the pressurized fresh water Atlantes Freedom? It's hard to argue with a system that will let you recover from stainless!

[Pascal]

customer service? i've had a number of VF over the years, what customer service? never had to call them...

the simplicity is the appeal...very little moving parts, just a simple bellow pump. maintenance is limited to replacing duckbills ever 5 or 6 years. Mines are 10 years old (year round liveaboard use) and i'm going to have to replace the bowl seals... not bad after 10 years.

[captddis]

I agree with Sky and MikeP. After reading so many threads just on this site about vacuflush troubles with pump cycling, etc I wonder why would anyone bother.

Lectra-San technology was impressive for a while back in the day decades ago, but Raritan can hardly be faulted for support of those old devices these days. The design of the new Atlantes heads is so well thought out and fool-proof that warranty service really should be almost non-existant. They have designed it so that in a bind you can reverse the polarity momentarily to unclog ANYTHING! I know this because somehow a stray SS screw ended up falling into my Atlantes and locking the bronze pump gear up! After a simple polarity reverse bump, the head spit the screw out and it was again ready for business! That was the first week of install and now more than 6 months later never a problem. I highly recommend the Raritan Atlantes.




So you are condeming 20+ year old vacuflush units because your atlantes has given 6 months of good service? Not a very convincing arguement.

[GJH]

I'll ditto Pascal on this. We have lived aboard full time for about a year and a half now and the VFs have been more reliable than our land based toilets! Ours are about 5 years old. The PO changed the duck bills right before we bought it. The wife is not one to be particularly diligent about following instructions, but all I've ever had to do was put a little silicon grease around one of the seals, all of about 30 seconds of work. If one follows the simple instructions, they are very reliable, scent free and use very little water (though one mistake people make is not to run enough water through them). They are one of my favorite things about the boat.

[Angela]

I hadn't planned on doing the VF conversion any time soon, but I got steal of a deal on two complete, independent VF systems, so I dove in. The systems were the perfect match, but for the price, I chose to make it work. They were 12v vacuum generators which was not love at first sight with my 32v boat. I bought a Newmar converter (10 or 15 amp - can't remember, but it is oversized for the job and I got it for around $100 I recall)and stepped down the power for both of those vacuum generators through that one converter.

The third head I'm doing is getting the 24v vacuum pump and traditional vacuum tank. Sealand (and others) says the 24v will work just fine in that application. I've not done the 4th head yet, but I will - it's the crew head and right now, having VF for my guests is more important.

I really like the fact that they flush with just a pint of [FRESH] water which is a vast improvement over the water-consuming GalleyMaids.

There is maintenance with everything whether is a $600 vacuum pump or a $600 GM pump, or a $12 duckbill or a $78 stator - like everything else, they all give up the ghost at some point and need some attention.

For me, I like the VF because it uses fresh water and only a miniscule amount of it; it does not smell like salt water can do after a period of time; it's easy for guests to use and there is no guessing on their part as to how long they have to flush and the flush is simple - no guessing which direction to turn the lever or for how long to flush to make sure it's all gone from to it needs to go; the time between pump outs is vastly extended; the VF is much, MUCH easier to service than those GM pumps and they weigh only a fraction of the GM pump. These are some of the reasons why I did the conversion to VF. Had it not been for the deal I got that got me started, I would not have done it.

Once the entire boat is done, I will have the pleasure of removing 7 thru-hulls, filling in the holes, and eliminating 7sources of potential disaster on my boat. That makes me feel good. Every thru-hull is a point of maintenance, potential point of failure, followed by potential disaster. The less of those I have, the better I will sleep, no matter how well I take care of my boat.

On another happy note, I just got a great deal on some FV accessories. I picked up 32v monitor switches for $32 each. Best price I found online was $146 each. I got four of them. These are the indicators that tell when it's OK to flush - red light, no; green light, yes. This will be useful for charter guests who are unfamiliar with these systems. For me, I can usually hear the pump going ching, ching on Ed's boat and know to wait until that's done to flush, but with our pumps going in the engine rooms, I don't think the guests will hear them, nor do I expect them to have an "ear" for it. It takes about a minute to 90 seconds to rebuild the vacuum after a flush. So, it's easy for me to tell guests who may be using the head one right after the other on occasion to simply wait for the green light. I'm quite happy with my recent find on those monitors.

[Timm]

Not exactly related to the thread subject but thought I'd include it anyway.

I installed a toilet system from a company by the name of Tecma on my 57' CC Connie about 7 years ago after getting tired of replacing pumps, seals and what not on Raritan's Crown heads. The installation was straightforward and took less than an hour. Reliability was unsurpassed and you can NOT clog the pump. They are completely self-contained. They use a design that holds any inappropriately dumped material until it can be macerated to sufficient size to be drawn through the pump. I have tried rags, coins, etc., and their claim is solid.

When I bought my Hat, the first thing I did was tear out the marginally operating Galley Maids and replaced them with the Tecma. They come in 12 or 24 volt versions and quite a few styles to fit virtually any space on board our Hats. I chose the Silence Plus model and it is indeed, very quiet.

My initial concern on serviceability, since they are an Italian company, was relieved since they are distributed in the US by Wilcox Crittenden. I haven't had to test their service capability yet since as I said, they have been working flawlessly.

Link to their site for review: http://www.tecma.eu/products/toilets?steID=1&catID=93

[MikeP]

This topic is definitely a controversial one. We have the 29 year old original GMs in our 53. They work great and I can't see any reason at all to replace them. If they spontaneously exploded I'd replace them with the Atlantes but until then...

[Pete]

We have two independent VF systems on our boat and for the 8 years we have owned it, duck bill valves and the seal between the bowl and the base have been replaced. Very pleased with the service. My experience is that using extra water is a good idea with each flush. Hold the pedal down for 4 or 5 seconds and the system get rinsed out with fresh water every time. Pumping out the holding tank a few extra times each year is more fun than getting into the plumbing ! ! !

As for running 24 volt motors on 32 volts. You can do it with any 24 volt motor for a while. Just try to keep the duty cycle short. Extra heat is the main problem. I would go for the 32 to 24 DC voltage converter. Or if you want the less expensive approach, use an in series resistor to knock the voltage down. A less than $5 solution that will more than pay for itself in extending your VF motor life.

Pete

[Angela]

The only one where I will have a 24v vacuum pump working off of a 32v supply will be the master stateroom's head. Once nice feature of those monitors I bought is that they have a breaker on/off switch on them so that you can turn them off in the head - no running to the breaker panel or to an engine room. It is normal for a vacuum pump to cycle a little every 10 hours to maintain the vacuum. Guests can turn it off at night if the pump noise is ever annoying, but since the new stuff is "whisper quiet", I don't know if the sound will be offensive anyway. The other pumps are in engine rooms.

Given that my master stateroom is a guest room (and not MY room) since Sanctuary is a charteryacht, that pump will be shut off all the time except for when we have charter guests onboard. I think that will greatly extend the life of the 24v pump. I like the resistor idea and I'll defer to Ed on the installation of that since electricity is not my forte. Meanwhile, that head will remain shut off most of the time so I don't have much reservation about the 24v/32v issue there.

[Pascal]

Angela

actually, like everything else lack of use is not good to VFs... so you may want to leave it on so the seals and duckbills remain in good shape. and flush it once in a while...

one nice thing about VFs is that even when if they start acting up (bowl seal or tired duckbill) they will still work manually... just turn on the switch before and turn it off after use. so even if something happesn during a trip, it's usually not game over.

[Walter P]

Pascal,

I wasn't aware that it was ok to run the VF "manually". The VF instructions that I read stated to wait for the pump to complete it's cycle before using again. If in fact you're correct and I don't doubt you, that's good to know in the event of a failure of the system.

While we're on the subject of VFs, my present boat has 3 systems (heads) with VFs. While they work ok for the most part, they occasionally give me grief. Our area VF dealer is a real prima donna and won't even consider repairs. Last year I called him to come over to check out one of the heads that would not stop pumping and another that had very weak suction. He claimed that they are never worth repairing and the best thing to do is replace all the systems. While I am not an expert on VF, I am not quite that stupid and asked him to kindly get off my boat. I found someone to replace the weak pump and replace a pressure valve on the other system. What I'm getting at is that if I was planning on replacing heads, I would probably get rid of the VFs and install Raritan Atlantes. I had Atlantes' on my previous Hatteras and they worked flawlessly except once. Rather than try to fix it, I called Raritan in Ft. Lauderdale and told them what was happening. They gave me detailed step by step instructions over the phone on how to go about it to get the bad part out and bring it down to them. Well, I removed the entire toilet and took it to them and they asked me to return in about an hour. After lunch at Lesters Diner, I went back and it was all fixed.. my bill.. Zero.
I kept that boat for another 5 years or so and sold it. The new owner said that he still has not had any problems with the heads. Hooray for Raritan......

Walt

[ThirdHatt]

So you are condeming 20+ year old vacuflush units because your atlantes has given 6 months of good service? Not a very convincing arguement.

No, not at all! My conclusions are simply drawn from the fact that there are so many different threads on VF issues just here on the HOF and absolutely NO threads on Atlantes issues. As you pointed out I have no real experience with either to speak of, but I make educated purchasing decisions from what I read and learn here and elsewhere from experienced users.

VF are obviously held in very high regard by many, and are quality products but apparently they are not without issues. The lack of any Atlantes trouble threads is at the very least quite encouraging, that's all. It certainly influenced my purchase and I hope in the long run that I made the right call. Only time will tell but so far, so good!

[SKYCHENEY]

Duck bills, vacuum generators, bowl seals, red light, green light........forget it. Just push the flush button on the touch pad of an Atlantes and the waste is gone. It takes no training for guests, except the usual instruction related to what NOT to put in any marine head. I'm never awakened by cycling pumps. If I were to need to work on the toilet, I can just pull it out and put in on my bench. All of the working parts are housed in the unit itself. No crawling in bilges to get to pumps or vac tanks. It's just simple and it works.......and it comes in a 32v version.

I was sold on VF until I installed the Atlantes. I had VF for 10 years on our previous boat, but I won't ever go back. I was ready to buy a VF for this boat until I found that they discontinued the 32v version. Then I took the advise from this site and bought the Atlantes. Thanks for the recommendation. We're very happy with them.

I'd be interested to know how many of you have owned both the VF and the Atlantes and which you prefer.

[captddis]

Duck bills, vacuum generators, bowl seals, red light, green light........forget it. Just push the flush button on the touch pad of an Atlantes and the waste is gone. It takes no training for guests, except the usual instruction related to what NOT to put in any marine head. I'm never awakened by cycling pumps. If I were to need to work on the toilet, I can just pull it out and put in on my bench. All of the working parts are housed in the unit itself. No crawling in bilges to get to pumps or vac tanks. It's just simple and it works.......and it comes in a 32v version.

I was sold on VF until I installed the Atlantes. I had VF for 10 years on our previous boat, but I won't ever go back. I was ready to buy a VF for this boat until I found that they discontinued the 32v version. Then I took the advise from this site and bought the Atlantes. Thanks for the recommendation. We're very happy with them.

I'd be interested to know how many of you have owned both the VF and the Atlantes and which you prefer.



To each his own. I was just on another forum and 5 people said that since they installed their VF systems they would never own anything else.

Three of them removed their POS raritan crown heads. I fail to see how disconnecting and lugging a big cumbersome toilet out of the boat for repair is easier than replacing a couple duckbills every ten years or so.

It is obvious from some of responses that people who have tried to do repairs do not understand the workings of the VF. The constant cycling BS is like the people who say that Detroits smoke like a chimney when started. No only the sick engines smoke and only improperly operating VFs cycle.

[SKYCHENEY]

To each his own. I was just on another forum and 5 people said that since they installed their VF systems they would never own anything else.

Three of them removed their POS raritan crown heads. I fail to see how disconnecting and lugging a big cumbersome toilet out of the boat for repair is easier than replacing a couple duckbills every ten years or so.

It is obvious from some of responses that people who have tried to do repairs do not understand the workings of the VF. The constant cycling BS is like the people who say that Detroits smoke like a chimney when started. No only the sick engines smoke and only improperly operating VFs cycle.

I would still be interested to hear the comments from those who have owned both the VF and the Atlantes, such as WalterP. Crown is the old generation head from Raritan, Atlantes is the most recent.

I'm not afraid to tear into a head for repair. I've had them all apart that I've ever owned including Groco, GM, VF, and Raritan. Of all of them I liked the VF best until I installed the Atlantes. In fact, I'm sure I would be just as passionate in my support for VF as you are had I not owned the Atlantes.

[egaito]

customer service? i've had a number of VF over the years, what customer service? never had to call them...

the simplicity is the appeal...very little moving parts, just a simple bellow pump. maintenance is limited to replacing duckbills ever 5 or 6 years. Mines are 10 years old (year round liveaboard use) and i'm going to have to replace the bowl seals... not bad after 10 years.


I was about to type a similar reply...at 10 years, I replaced a bad vacuum switch, all the seals, and the pump bellows, most because once the first part failed, I figured I'd get dirty once. With the track record I have with the units, an only a 20 gallon holding tank on Misty, they're a slam-dunk to me.

Any of the companies that work hard to defend their dealer network will give a consumer the same treatment. I actually don't blame them for that...most companies don't support their dealers, allowing their products to become commodities. Reduced margins drive away qualified dealers and ultimately reduces customer satisfaction.

On average, installing such a system IS beyond the capability of the average boat owner, and unfortunately, we all end up getting treated as the average boat owner when we call.

[egaito]

We have two independent VF systems on our boat and for the 8 years we have owned it, duck bill valves and the seal between the bowl and the base have been replaced. Very pleased with the service. My experience is that using extra water is a good idea with each flush. Hold the pedal down for 4 or 5 seconds and the system get rinsed out with fresh water every time. Pumping out the holding tank a few extra times each year is more fun than getting into the plumbing ! ! !

As for running 24 volt motors on 32 volts. You can do it with any 24 volt motor for a while. Just try to keep the duty cycle short. Extra heat is the main problem. I would go for the 32 to 24 DC voltage converter. Or if you want the less expensive approach, use an in series resistor to knock the voltage down. A less than $5 solution that will more than pay for itself in extending your VF motor life.

Pete


The series resistor is an interesting idea. I suspect the reason they're OK with the motors running on 32v is that they indeed do have a fairly short duty cycle.

[captddis]

I would still be interested to hear the comments from those who have owned both the VF and the Atlantes, such as WalterP. Crown is the old generation head from Raritan, Atlantes is the most recent.

I'm not afraid to tear into a head for repair. I've had them all apart that I've ever owned including Groco, GM, VF, and Raritan. Of all of them I liked the VF best until I installed the Atlantes. In fact, I'm sure I would be just as passionate in my support for VF as you are had I not owned the Atlantes.

I make my living repairing boats and a fair amount of time repairing heads. That is why I like VF and Galley Maid. The quiet flush Jabsco is ok for a cheaper head as well. I have suffered with the crowns, PHE, and your beloved atlantes not to mention all the lectra sans.

[Walter P]

As I previously stated, my biggest gripe with VF is that to get parts from them means dealing with your "local" factory authorized distributer, which in my case strikes me as a jerk that has harmed the companies reputation. Just by reading some of the posts regarding VF and others proves that everyone has their favorites for various reasons. The VF's are great, but......certainly not as simple to install and maintain. The Atlantes is self contained, they can use fresh or salt water with the use of a diverter switch (available from Raritan) and best of all there is NO maintaince of equipment in the machinery spaces that you have to crawl over or bump into. The flip side is that the VFs use less water, which is a big consideration unless you have a very large holding tank.

Sky, as far a which is more reliable - probably toss a coin. I have enjoyed brand new Atlantis heads as very trouble free. In fairness to VF, mine came with the boat and therefore I have no knowledge of how long they lasted before problems developed. Perhaps if I had new VFs I would like them even more - As I stated previously, If I needed to install 3 new complete systems today, they would be Atlantes hands down.

Walt

[Pascal]

i've heard good thing about Atlantes so it's probably a tie...

a to "manual" operation, you need some vaccum for "solids" to make it thru the venturi at the bottom but you need far less that the cut off level. So if you get a leak somewhere, or a weak pump you can still use the head.

there are no red lights, green lights, etc... maybe just a power light... some may have a ready light which is not really necessary anyway.

the vacum generator is really just a small tank, nothing to it and as i mentioend before the pump is so simple that you never have to deal with it.

sure, the duckbills and a seal shoudl be replaced every 5 or 6 years but dont' tell me the Atlantes doens't have any impeller, stator or seal that needs occasional maintenance.

another thing i like about the VF is that WHEN (not if) a female guest flushes a tampon it ends up at the pump inlet where it can be pulled in a couple of minutes. undo the coupling, pull the thing, put the coupling back. If the pump was installed correctly, it will be higher than the hose so no spills.

Walter, you can find the service parts anywhere, even Worst Marine stocks duckbills and bowlseals.

as the reason why you probable hear questions about VF than Atlantes is statistical as VF have more or less been the standard on most boats for 20+ years. AFAIK Atlantes are not as common, yet.

[captddis]

I am not going to beat this horse any more, my last comment is to look inside the atlantes head and then tell me it is simpler and easier to service. Plus you have to unbolt it then disconnect the hoses and have caca spill out, then need room to work on it.I believe the red and green lights are called the nav lights.

[stormchaser]

another thing i like about the VF is that WHEN (not if) a female guest flushes a tampon


No kidding. I made the huge mistake of letting a female friend who was trying to leave an abusive relationship stay onmy previous boat for a few weeks. After 2 days, she called and said the head wouldnt flush. I had to pullthe pump apart and I found at least 6-8 strings wrapped around the impeller. What a fucking aweful day that was. lol

So yeah...any design that allows for easy access to impellors/pumps for getting them unclogged is a bonus for me.

[ThirdHatt]

FYI, the Atlantes has a bronze impeller with sharp edges that will chop up pretty much anything (except a SS screw) and should never wear out. Only two bolts hold it to the floor, then it slides away from the wall. You're only two hose clamps and a power wire away from complete removal if ever necessary.

Another nice feature, it has a clear plastic cover to serve as a "window" covering the impeller/macerator to see any potential problem. That is how I found the SS screw that found it's way into mine, just by looking through the window. I unbolted the two bolts and slid the head forward and took a look see and the window showed me the problem immediately. I left a few extra feet of inlet and outlet hose on mine so that I can easily slide them well forward and service anything merely by removing the two bolts that hold it to the floor and hopefully never have to disconnect the hoses. I simply reversed the polarity (as per the manual) and bumped the handle and watched the jammed screw unlodge itself and come back up. Terribly easy fix and no hoses to disconnect. Who knows if I will be as lucky next time!

There's my newby experience with heads that are still under warranty. Happy so far.

[SKYCHENEY]

I believe the red and green lights are called the nav lights.
Angela brought up the red light/green light thing. My VF's didn't have that and I have never seen it before. My point was that you don't have to wait for vacuum to build before flushing with the Atlantes.

I loved the VF on our last boat and we had three of them. I just prefer the Atlantes for ease of use and ease of maintenance.

[Angela]

The red light/green light is an ACCESSORY. Yes, my boat also has red and green nav lights, but that has nothing to do with flushing the heads. I'm not sure how someone confused the two. ??????

It takes about 60 to 90 seconds for VF to recover the vacuum and be ready for the next flush. That's usually enough time for someone to wash their hands, etc. before the next person goes in to use the head and is ready to flush again. It's simply an accessory. Not everyone with VF has this monitor and circuit breaker, and it's not a required component to run VF.

This accessory will also give you an early warning if something is going wrong by showing you the pump is cycling when perhaps it might not be. If I had to pay Sealand's retail price, I would not bother, but they were cheap and they will fill the hole the GM switch will leave behind.

[carolinacoast]

Between all of these great posts, the pricing and process from the EM dealer distributor & warranty inspection, a very efficient call to Mac at Raritan, I am going to install 3 freshwater Atlantes Freedoms. The VF pricing through the double markup they were trying to force on me was almost $3k per Toilet! Ridiculous. Raritan also had a much better answer for the question, "how is the system affected if I run out of Fresh Water?". the answer, "No Problem."

Thanks for the education. I was biased toward VF at the beginning, and am confident we will be happy with the Raritan choice.

[GJH]

I'm curious: how did someone manage to get you to 3k a toilet. Unless you go to the super deluxe model, it's hard to get to much more than 1.5k for the whole system...

[Angela]

Between all of these great posts, the pricing and process from the EM dealer distributor & warranty inspection, a very efficient call to Mac at Raritan, I am going to install 3 freshwater Atlantes Freedoms. The VF pricing through the double markup they were trying to force on me was almost $3k per Toilet! Ridiculous. Raritan also had a much better answer for the question, "how is the system affected if I run out of Fresh Water?". the answer, "No Problem."

Thanks for the education. I was biased toward VF at the beginning, and am confident we will be happy with the Raritan choice.
EM's pricing is insane and no one should pay that much. I got my first two units for $1,500 for both, complete, independent systems - including EVERYTHING. I had a third head to do which meant I needed to buy another system. EM was off the chart in terms of pricing. The china head they priced at $1,300, I got priced for $400. The 24v S pump they wanted nearly $1,000 for, I got for $650. T-pump....$550....it's only $250 anywhere else. Vacuum tank...over $500...is in the low $300.... See the trend here???? The reality is that EM does not want to sell to the consumer because they think we're all too stupid to install it. These prices are no where near what they sell through their dealers.

One thing I find very interesting is how passionate we all are over an object we take a crap in! LOL We debate blisters, "the best layout", wallpaper vs. teak, cockpit v. no cockpit, whether the Bird should stay or go, and toilets with the same passion we have for our Hatts overall. One thing we do not debate is whether Hatteras is the better boat. :D Everything else, apparently, is fair game.

[SKYCHENEY]

Between all of these great posts, the pricing and process from the EM dealer distributor & warranty inspection, a very efficient call to Mac at Raritan, I am going to install 3 freshwater Atlantes Freedoms. The VF pricing through the double markup they were trying to force on me was almost $3k per Toilet! Ridiculous. Raritan also had a much better answer for the question, "how is the system affected if I run out of Fresh Water?". the answer, "No Problem."

Thanks for the education. I was biased toward VF at the beginning, and am confident we will be happy with the Raritan choice.

Pricing aside, you probably made the best choice. I would have reservations about installing a 24v pump in a 32v system. Will it work? Yes, but for how long? And if you install a converter, that's another item that continually draws on your batteries, even when the heads are not in use. The converters generate heat that's why they have cooling fins on them. If I were to install a VF system on a 32v boat, I'd go with a 120v system and run it off of my inverter. Otherwise, I'd find a toilet that runs on 32v. But that's just my opinion and obviously others here disagree.

[captddis]

The red light/green light is an ACCESSORY. Yes, my boat also has red and green nav lights, but that has nothing to do with flushing the heads. I'm not sure how someone confused the two. ??????

It takes about 60 to 90 seconds for VF to recover the vacuum and be ready for the next flush. That's usually enough time for someone to wash their hands, etc. before the next person goes in to use the head and is ready to flush again. It's simply an accessory. Not everyone with VF has this monitor and circuit breaker, and it's not a required component to run VF.

This accessory will also give you an early warning if something is going wrong by showing you the pump is cycling when perhaps it might not be. If I had to pay Sealand's retail price, I would not bother, but they were cheap and they will fill the hole the GM switch will leave behind.


I never confused the two lights, I was being sarcastic.

[ron6785]

Duck bills, vacuum generators, bowl seals, red light, green light........forget it. Just push the flush button on the touch pad of an Atlantes and the waste is gone. It takes no training for guests, except the usual instruction related to what NOT to put in any marine head. I'm never awakened by cycling pumps. If I were to need to work on the toilet, I can just pull it out and put in on my bench. All of the working parts are housed in the unit itself. No crawling in bilges to get to pumps or vac tanks. It's just simple and it works.......and it comes in a 32v version.

I was sold on VF until I installed the Atlantes. I had VF for 10 years on our previous boat, but I won't ever go back. I was ready to buy a VF for this boat until I found that they discontinued the 32v version. Then I took the advise from this site and bought the Atlantes. Thanks for the recommendation. We're very happy with them.

I'd be interested to know how many of you have owned both the VF and the Atlantes and which you prefer.

Sky, I totally concure I have relatively new Vf's and they've been nothing but problematic. Some of the problem was they were originally fed with salt water because the previous owner apparently did'nt know any better. I currently have my msr head vacuum pump in pieces getting the calcium out of the billows and billows chamber. I would never recommend VF's on a refit.

[egaito]

Sky, I totally concure I have relatively new Vf's and they've been nothing but problematic. Some of the problem was they were originally fed with salt water because the previous owner apparently did'nt know any better. I currently have my msr head vacuum pump in pieces getting the calcium out of the billows and billows chamber. I would never recommend VF's on a refit.

It's a little unfair to associate poor porformance with an ignorant PO and a poor installation, is it not?

I don't have the lights and switches that are optional for the system, only the switch that stops flushing when teh tank is beyone full. Any marine head that gives over 10 years of service, without maintenance, and flushes with only a pint of fresh water is Ok in my book, and that has been my experience.

The Atlantis is a nice head by all accounts, but if someone were to install it impropperly and flush something down it that shouldn't be flushed, would the results not be equally unpleasant?

[Angela]

You're going to have the calcium build up problem with any head system you use. It's not the VF's fault that's there. Sealand recommends fresh water, yet admits you "can" use salt water, but expect to replace the maintenance parts (that includes the bellows) more often. Anyone will find that to be true of any head system, short of a bucket. If you give any head manufacturer the choice of what's better for their product, I'm sure everyone of them will pick fresh water, hands down while telling the customer that the product works on salt water, too.

I just spent the better part of an evening digging out calcium rocks from a hose and then decided just to pull a new hose and run more PVC - this is on my GalleyMaid head. If you use fresh water in any of these various head systems, then you don't get that crud. That a user's choice - boating is all about compromises - use salt water, have an unlimited supply of it, and do more maintenance on your stuff, or use fresh water and do less maintenance. However, nothing is maintenance free.

I chose to use fresh water in three of my four heads, leaving the crew head salty just in case I ever found myself out of water. However, I'm rethinking that after the work I've done on it this evening, and a freshwater head is looking more and more attractive.

[MikeP]

I feel compelled to once again mention that our 1980 53MY still has the oem GM heads/pumps. The boat has always been in saltwater and continues to be. The heads are RW and I haven't had a moment's problem with them in the 5 years I have had the boat. There is a receipt from the PO showing that the head pumps were rebuilt by Razz a matazz (or something like that) in the late 90's, when the boat was nearly 20 years old. Other than that there has been NO maintenance at all to the heads and related plumbing.

I would never consider changing to FW heads even if I had a reason to replace the oems. If I did have to replace the oems, VFs would not be on my list at all.

So, as Paul Harvey used to say, that's "the rest of the story."

I know most folks disagree with me on this but I think it's worthwhile to hear that not EVERYONE thinks switching to FW is useful.

[Angela]

The salt water will getcha at some point, though it does take a while to build up enough to affect the GalleyMaids. Mike our boats are the same age, and mine spent her first 15 or 17 years on Lake Michigan before being introduced to saltwater. I've seen the ill effects of using saltwater.

I switched the GMs out because I want to use less water flushing since we don't have dockside pumpout. The GMs use a LOT of water and because of that, it's not feasible to swap them over to freshwater without a watermaker onboard. The GMs are real beasts and will take a lot, but when it's time to work on them, and that time will eventually come, you get reminded of just how beastly they are.

I'm not knocking them - they probably the most robust system out there, but the have their downsides too, mostly the water consumption. Here's what I took out of my GM system a couple of years ago when I was rebuilding all of them. This is the calcium buildup you get with salt water:

[Angela]

You know....that makes me wonder how much holding tank capacity I've lost...how much of that calcium crap is on the bottom of my tank? That stuff is like concrete and it's tough to saw through.

[MikeP]

Ang, you make a good point re water usage which is both good and bad. Yes, the GMs use a lot of water but IMHO the use of a lot of water is what keeps the systems working well and odorless. We never flush for less than 5 seconds and more typically 8-10. True, if you have to pump the tank frequently and don't have a convenient way to do it, that's a PITA.

Oh...one thing I should mention because it may be related...our boat has the GM waste treatment systems on the guest and master heads and a lectra san on the forward head so to be fair I have to say that the total lack of odor on the boat could be partially due to these devices. The 2 GM systems appear to have been installed by the dealer - Hatteras of Lauderdale- in 1980. The Lectra San was installed in 1992. I don't know if there was a GM waste treatment system for the forward head prior to that but there does not appear to have been. Seems odd, though to have two of the heads routed through treatment systems and not the third. Maybe no one used the forward compartment until the PO bought the boat from the first owner in 1990 or thereabouts.

[doc g]

What's a GM "waste treatment system"????....................Pat

[MikeP]

Here they are: http://www.galleymaid.com/gpage5.html

Essentlally what they do is add chlorine, using swimming pool tablets, to the waste after it leaves the head pump. It then "holds" the waste in the four cannisters to ensure good mixing of the chlorine/waste liquid. It actually works exactly the same way as a lectra san - chlorine to kill the bacteria - but instead of producing the chlorine using electricity/salt water, it does it mechanically. The results are the same but, of course, no electricity is required BUT you do have to check and add chlorine tabs periodically.

The NICE thing about both of these devices is that waste that comes out of them is basically a cloudy-clear liquid that smells like swimming pool water.

[34Hatt]

Well I have many friends with VF been on many other boats with them most owners like them. But when I boat my boat it had a Atlantis Installed useing salt water. It is now 10 years old only time I did anything was due to SIL being aboard for 1 day :( " the Mouse"

Now I read I might not have needed to go into it which only took maybe 20 mins TOTAL. It mounts with two screws and one hose clamp so Dave I don't see the big deal there. If there is a next time I will try to reverse polarity as Third Hat said too and If it works I will just have to buy Byron a drink at the boat show while I smile about it :)
Nice Tip!!!!!!


Also I did one acid/water bath the year before and I was amazed at the inside it looked like it was a week old :)

[ron6785]

I am not going to beat this horse any more, my last comment is to look inside the atlantes head and then tell me it is simpler and easier to service. Plus you have to unbolt it then disconnect the hoses and have caca spill out, then need room to work on it.I believe the red and green lights are called the nav lights.

captddis, After putting my VF back together I must have small vacuum leak as the pump cycles ocassionally. I don't have a guage so not sure how to find a negative pressure leak. If you have a air leak on the positive side it should manifest itself in a small liquid leak. Do you have experience on where leaks most likely to be ,obviously the hose connections are the first points.
I had the system apart to clean the calcium out of the system and the build up in the billows chamber had worn the edges of the billows although they don't leak and pumb just fine. It doesn't seem to me that even if there is increased tollerances between the billows and the chamber wall that would cause a vacuum leak?
Ron

[dwaynec]

Have you tried tightening the band that goes around the base of the bowl and the pedestal? That is how I cured the occasional cycling of the heads in our boat. YMMV. but I just had to tighten that band 1/4 turn with a 7/16" wrench and the heads have stopped the extra cycling.